concealed weapon carry

[usalsfyre]

I am all for the right to reasonable defense. That means reasonable force (weapon choice or defense choice), reasonable time, and reasonable place...

How in Hades do you make THAT determination beforehand?

 

[Bullets]

1 life is not even close enough for me to even think about it. To make good economical decisions (Especially in healthcare) you have to put a value on a life. And frankly arming 150,000 (or even a significant fraction) EMS workers that deal with drunks, druggies, violent patients, and the like on a daily basis in cramped situations, darkness, chaos, etc etc...seems like a terrible idea. Frankly I would bet that if we armed 150,000 EMS workers who worked full time we would have more then 10 shootings this year that involved the patient taking the gun or accidental discharge. The study I pulled up showed 10 total homicides over 5 years (who knows if any were preventable)

I hate to be cold and calculated about a persons life but you have to be when making good economical decisions.

How many EMTs were assaulted last year? There is more to this then just instances of homicide

 

[CFal]

Because the public (and many in this field) want you to remain a soft target, that people know they can both push around and attack because you aren't allowed to carry weapons to shoot back.

I'm far from a gun nut, but as Bullets said, it's a very hypocritical point of view.

Did you actually read the article? it says having cops with defibs save lives. it makes sense, there are more cops than firemen, more cops than ems workers, and they are already in their cards, so their response times are lower. I am totally ok with having cops respond to all cardiac arrests, as they should; after all, they are going to a potential homicide until proven otherwise (after all, a death needs to be investigated).

nowhere does the article say PD should respond to ALL calls. further, the arguement can also be made that they need no EMS training at all, since their are now public access defibs, so they just show up, apply the defib, and cpr the person (since time is needed and EARLY CPR and defib save lives).

I did read it, it is just one of the reasons for assigning PD to EMS calls.

 

[JPINFV]

How many EMTs were assaulted last year? There is more to this then just instances of homicide

Assault!=right to use deadly force.

Unfortunately, firearms are one trick ponies. Shoot someone who assaulted you with their fists and there's a good chance you're the one going to jail. Also assaults from psych/neuro/altered patients by and large don't count. That's just a perk of the job.

 

[errey]

Assault!=right to use deadly force.

Unfortunately, firearms are one trick ponies. Shoot someone who assaulted you with their fists and there's a good chance you're the one going to jail. Also assaults from psych/neuro/altered patients by and large don't count. That's just a perk of the job.

100% agree, so are we treating our victim, I mean patient after we shoot them :unsure: On a serious note I don't see any good that would ever come from it. Not that my opinion matters as my country would never allow this, however the thought of having to defend myself while working doesn't even cross my mind. I am way more worried of getting in some type of traffic accident then someone trying to shoot me, plus I don't think it's very professional just as I wouldn't think it would be professional if my doctor was carrying a gun while examining me. I can see where potential problems could arise, for instance one who is carrying a gun may feel more confident to handle a certain situation rather than calling for authorities. And the consequences of you using your firearm on the job could be career ending. If the general populace and the government thought it was necessary for EMS personnel to carry a firearm they would of issued you one. Oh and to whoever provided those stats, those ten homicides of EMS personnel was that on or off the job you never mentioned?

 

[Clipper1]

But what bad situations are you referring to?

Lawful carry by armed Security and Police in the ER. There are also reasons why Police and Correction Officer place their weapons in a secure box before entering certain areas.

 

[Bullets]

Assault!=right to use deadly force.

Unfortunately, firearms are one trick ponies. Shoot someone who assaulted you with their fists and there's a good chance you're the one going to jail. Also assaults from psych/neuro/altered patients by and large don't count. That's just a perk of the job.

im not saying assault automatically requires deadly force

But just looking at successful homicides doesnt show the whole story either.

 

[DrParasite]

Shoot someone who assaulted you with their fists and there's a good chance you're the one going to jail. Also assaults from psych/neuro/altered patients by and large don't count. That's just a perk of the job.

Not always. People have been beaten to death with their fists.

and assaults by psychs absolutely do count. cops can and have used their guns when psych patients have threatened them. usually when they are armed and refuse to drop their weapons. Just because they are crazy doesn't mean they have the right to hurt their providers

do I want to shoot anyone? absolutely not. does any cop want to shoot anyone? well, maybe a select few, but they are by far the minority. But I still want to go home after every shift, using whatever means I can.

 

[Action942Jackson]

If we don't do something, we are all stupid for doing nothing. Something has to change. This isn't the 1970s were your invited for tea and crumpets by the family in the afternoon after the call you ran saved their child's life in the morning. How many incidents of public safety hostage situations, being shot on duty, assaulted happened in the 1970s vs today?

 

[DrParasite]

btw, sometimes we are just lucky that the bullet doesn't kill a paramedic.... but I know that doesn't count for some peoples numbers about EMS personnel who are killed in the line of duty

http://statter911.com/2013/04/15/88...all-berekely-ca-firefighter-grazed-by-bullet/

 

[JPINFV]

Not always. People have been beaten to death with their fists.

I won't argue that it doesn't happen. However the vast vast majority of assault by fists don't rise to that level.

and assaults by psychs absolutely do count. cops can and have used their guns when psych patients have threatened them. usually when they are armed and refuse to drop their weapons. Just because they are crazy doesn't mean they have the right to hurt their providers

So your psych patient is resisting restraints and smacks you. You're going to back off and draw down on the patient? Shoot them if they continue to resist?

It's about the right tool for the job, and this is like using a sledge hammer when a pin hammer would work.

 

[Action942Jackson]

You know the difference of intent when you are slapped vs. someone goes for your throat. That's the difference. Slapped, eh. Perk of the job. You go for my throat. You will die. Plain and simple.

 

[JPINFV]

If we don't do something, we are all stupid for doing nothing. Something has to change. This isn't the 1970s were your invited for tea and crumpets by the family in the afternoon after the call you ran saved their child's life in the morning. How many incidents of public safety hostage situations, being shot on duty, assaulted happened in the 1970s vs today?

The "OMG WE MUST DO SOMETHING... ANYTHING," attitude only results in I intended consequences, and never anything good.

 

[Rialaigh]

How many EMTs were assaulted last year? There is more to this then just instances of homicide

You can't start shooting everyone that assaults you (I mean I guess you could make a case that you could). I have very little faith that firearms are going to prevent the majority of assaults that EMS is subjected to. If you are going to give EMS firearms and allow them to shoot people that assault them you also have to give them handcuffs and tasers. There has to be some escalating scale of force used, you can't just go from nothing to shooting people.

If you shot every person in the back of the ambulance that threatened to kill or harm you and then physically hit you or kicked you how many people would you have hurt/killed last year...a lot more then the 10 EMS personnel that the study I posted were killed over 5 years.

We can't start making our life that much more valuable then our patients life. There has to be some form of balance. The same reason cops don't shoot every single person that puts their hand in their pocket, would less cops get shot at each year, yes, but would way more innocent civilians be shot each year, yes.

How in Hades do you make THAT determination beforehand?

There has to be a line. If I have the right to defend myself from the government as well then I should have the right to carry an anti aircraft gun every time I am anywhere because heaven forbid someone try to use an aircraft to shoot at me. Drug cartels are starting to use submarines to bring drugs into the US, does that mean I can arm my little salt water fishing boat with torpedo's?

There has to be reasonable justification that carrying could have a possible difference.

If we don't do something, we are all stupid for doing nothing. Something has to change. This isn't the 1970s were your invited for tea and crumpets by the family in the afternoon after the call you ran saved their child's life in the morning. How many incidents of public safety hostage situations, being shot on duty, assaulted happened in the 1970s vs today?

I would put money more assaults happened on duty in the 80's and 90's verse today (when you take out clinical psych patients). I sure as heck have not seen anything to indicate otherwise.

 

[ffemt8978]

I would put money more assaults happened on duty in the 80's and 90's verse today (when you take out clinical psych patients). I sure as heck have not seen anything to indicate otherwise.

You might want to check with DT4EMS about that...

 

[Rialaigh]

You might want to check with DT4EMS about that...

I went out of my way to post a study supporting what I am saying, I haven't seen a single piece of data supporting carrying guns at all in this thread...

and honestly, I don't care enough about this topic to search out the other side

homicides is about the 30th "leading" cause of death in EMS...it is waaay down the list.

 

[ffemt8978]

It doesn't have to be a homicide to be a problem. How about violent assaults?

 

[Rialaigh]

It doesn't have to be a homicide to be a problem. How about violent assaults?

Need to be dealt with with non lethal means when possible, The difference between physical restraint and guns are too great. There ought to be at least one option between the two. I'm not a believer that concealed carry will prevent violent assaults in EMS, by the time the assault begins in a cramped space you only have two options, let the assault continue or shoot the person. Neither of those options reduces injuries, fatalities, or medical costs.

 

[ffemt8978]

Need to be dealt with with non lethal means when possible, The difference between physical restraint and guns are too great. There ought to be at least one option between the two. I'm not a believer that concealed carry will prevent violent assaults in EMS, by the time the assault begins in a cramped space you only have two options, let the assault continue or shoot the person. Neither of those options reduces injuries, fatalities, or medical costs.

Wow...


Just wow.

 

[DrParasite]

I went out of my way to post a study supporting what I am saying, I haven't seen a single piece of data supporting carrying guns at all in this thread...

What type of data are you looking for?

I have read an articles about EMS crews being armed and assault going down (openly carrying), an article saying EMS are soft targets and will continue to be attacked, and there have been published cases of EMS crews being held hostage, held at gun point, assaulted, and even killed while working.

Then there is the logic of "gun free zones;" all the law abiding citizens will not have firearms, but the bad guys will ignore them, bring their guns, and be able to shoot everyone knowing the victims are following the law and unable to shoot back. So i know the ambulance people aren't armed, and there are only two of them; what's the wrost they can do to me if I wanted to threaten them with harm if they didn't do what I say?

I'm not saying concealed carry is the answer. In fact, I'd argue openly carrying is much more of a deterant to assaults, but that also means that an expection can be made that you would draw should the situation arise. But that's another topic.

So again I ask, what data do you want, and how much do you want?