concealed weapon carry

[RocketMedic]

Yesterday, I restrained a cooperative man. He was a schizophrenic, 180 pound, muscular, pleasant, hungry man who wanted help with the voices in his head and violent thoughts. I was polite and professional, but we were both safe with him in appropriate 4-point restraints. We had a great time, hes a pleasant patient and we offloaded with him laughing and generally happy. My partner understood perfectly, but u/a at an ER, another medic commented to me that "You know you can't restrain people, that's illegal. You're taking their rights." I got blown off when I informed him that my use of restraints is no different than a seat belt- they are there for patient and crew safety. According to this medic, this paragon of goodness and Starcare, the most appropriate answer is to simply wait until there's a fight, then "choke him out or use oxygen". Yeah. That's the level of stupidity we're dealing with. Safe, calm, cooperative patients and transports are "illegal", but undocumented assaults with possible serious injury to both parties are OK. As for whether the fight starts, let's roll the dice. "But he's being unlawfully detained" doesn't fly. The restraints are four extra seatbelts protecting us from eachother and ourselves.

I have never actually been in a true knock-down fight alone in a truck. Maybe its luck, or maybe its because I restrain preemptively. Maybe its both. Yes, there are times when I with I had a revolver or a holdout gun in my pocket, but those are also times where I should be getting out of the house. I'm all for carry too, but lets get there the right way and implement it in such a way that we educate and train our people appropriately. Mr. "Restraints-Are-Bad" is not who I want on a belligerent drunk, and he's certainly not the one who needs to have a firearm on-duty.

Universal carry, mandatory training just like the police. Thats the only way EMS carry is workable.

 

[Rialaigh]

What type of data are you looking for?

I have read an articles about EMS crews being armed and assault going down (openly carrying), an article saying EMS are soft targets and will continue to be attacked, and there have been published cases of EMS crews being held hostage, held at gun point, assaulted, and even killed while working.

Then there is the logic of "gun free zones;" all the law abiding citizens will not have firearms, but the bad guys will ignore them, bring their guns, and be able to shoot everyone knowing the victims are following the law and unable to shoot back. So i know the ambulance people aren't armed, and there are only two of them; what's the wrost they can do to me if I wanted to threaten them with harm if they didn't do what I say?

I'm not saying concealed carry is the answer. In fact, I'd argue openly carrying is much more of a deterant to assaults, but that also means that an expection can be made that you would draw should the situation arise. But that's another topic.

So again I ask, what data do you want, and how much do you want?

I haven't seen any concrete data showing EMS is more of a target for homicides, shootings, and stabbings, then the general public. I would say we are at a much much much greater risk for assault. However I can't see a lot of situations in which carrying concealed prevents an assault or reduces fatalities or injuries in assaults. I have seen data showing that in a situation in which there are people fighting without guns no one gets shot. And in situations in which guns are introduced more people get shot....that's just a fact. Introducing guns into the back of an ambulance where on 99.99% of calls there were previously no firearms, is increasing the risk of a firearm related incident. I don't see any data showing that the benefit of having firearms outweighs this risk.

 

[Rialaigh]

Wow...


Just wow.

wow what, show me I am wrong. Situations in which you shoot the the patient instead of the patient punching you in the face does not solve more problems then it creates...its not a good solution to EMS assaults.


I guess lets look at this very simply. Law enforcement has been doing this for years. There is a reason they use non-deadly force in the VAST MAJORITY of assaults on officers. Because it is the best option we currently have available (mostly in the form of a TASER). If law enforcement was forced to shoot every person that they had previously tased do you think we, the general public, would like LEO's very much....they would be killing thousands of people a year. EMS is no different, the VAST majority of incidents can be safely mitigated with a TASER while introducing a much more minimal risk into the environment of the assault. Why insist on guns when we have a much better solution that reduces risk, increases utilization, and requires less training to use effectively.

 

[DrParasite]

I have never actually been in a true knock-down fight alone in a truck. Maybe its luck, or maybe its because I restrain preemptively. Maybe its both.

one of my coworkers was. on a 911 job, she picked up a psych who was calm. no PD with her. she was in the back of the ambulance alone, and while transporting, the EDP unbuckled herself, and promptly whooped her ***. She suffered permanent brain damage from having her head repeatedly slammed into the side of the ambulance, was out of work for more 6 months, while she relearned how to walk, talk and function.

to this day, she still can't see well, she forgets things, she has issues with bright lights, and she hasn't set foot on an ambulance since.

So yeah, it does happen. i don't think having a firearm would have helped in her case, but it absolutely doesn't happen to EMS providers.

 

[Aidey]

Not to down play what happened to your coworker, but how many EMS people have brain damage from assaults vs ambulance crashes? Like JP has said before, seat belts and cardio would save way more lives than anything. Every time something happens people start screaming we need guns, but when a crash happens, people don't give vehicle safety nearly as much attention.

 

[Rialaigh]

Not to down play what happened to your coworker, but how many EMS people have brain damage from assaults vs ambulance crashes?

Or strokes... :unsure:

 

[RocketMedic]

Not to down play what happened to your coworker, but how many EMS people have brain damage from assaults vs ambulance crashes? Like JP has said before, seat belts and cardio would save way more lives than anything. Every time something happens people start screaming we need guns, but when a crash happens, people don't give vehicle safety nearly as much attention.

Ambulance crashes cannot be prevented by patient restraints. Fights can be.

 

[JPINFV]

Ambulance crashes cannot be prevented by patient restraints. Fights can be.

So your firearm is going to stop the psych patient from charging you in the ambulance?

 

[truetiger]

Anyone see the story about the Cali fire fighters fired on while on an ems call?

 

[Aidey]

Anyone see the story about the Alabama FF who shot another FF on a call, while trying to take down a cow?

 

[Clipper1]

Anyone see the story about the Cali fire fighters fired on while on an ems call?

An 88 y/o decided he didn't want treatment decided to exercise his right to defend himself.

 

[truetiger]

I'm not sue why you down play violence on ems? You cite ambulance crashes, which are addressed by cevo and courses like it, this topic addresses violence against us.

 

[Aidey]

I'm not sue why you down play violence on ems? You cite ambulance crashes, which are addressed by cevo and courses like it, this topic addresses violence against us.

CEVO is just one thing, and I bet nearly every person killed in an ambulance or POV crash while responding has taken CEVO...and they still died. Concealed carry doesn't address violence against EMS. It just complicates things.

 

[JPINFV]

I'm not sue why you down play violence on ems? You cite ambulance crashes, which are addressed by cevo and courses like it, this topic addresses violence against us.

Except that in all but a small minority of incidences, having a firearm does nothing to protect you either because it is not proportional to the point of illegality to use it or because it's impractical (21 foot rule).

 

[RocketMedic]

So your firearm is going to stop the psych patient from charging you in the ambulance?

If needed, yes. Better their neutralization than my injury.

 

[Aidey]

If needed, yes. Better their neutralization than my injury.

Are you really prepared to shoot every drunk/psych/drugged out pt who doesn't comply when you pull a gun on them?

 

[RocketMedic]

Are you really prepared to shoot every drunk/psych/drugged out pt who doesn't comply when you pull a gun on them?

No, but I am prepared to shoot every drunk that poses a risk to my life by assaulting me, if I judge there is a risk to my life. If I cannot avoid, outrun, or outfight trouble, I can neutralize it.

A gun would not be my first option, but it does massively expand my defensive options. Take DrParasite's partner0. She was placed in a life-threatening scenario, partially of her own creation, and nearly died for it. If something similar happened to me, Id rather have a gun and end the fight than risk dead at the crazed hands of an EDP.

 

[mycrofft]

Far be it from me to be a wetter blanket than I am usually...

When I first started here, no one would call the madness of arming ambulance and fire personnel. Now I read lots of folks bringing up the opposing opinion. Good on us.

I sincerely hope and doubt that anywhere nearly as many of the fine people on this forum are half as "prepared" to shoot someone as they say, or think they are.

Of course, carrying a firearm, knife, or plumber's helper will have one that much more prepared to act, since we all know "When you have a hammer with you, it's amazing how everything you see needs a good bash". Or shot, stabbed, or plunged.

The study I/we undertook here last year about homicides on prehospital EMS by patients or bystanders (very rare), the polling we've done here, and commonsense (EMS companies can't keep their people proficient and equipped to do their medical jobs as it is, much less the conniptions related to carrying firearms on the job) all indicate that this black hole of EMTLIFE, while it is resurgent, is as valid a use of time as arguing about working EMS on horseback in an urban environment or making patients walk to the ambulance. Constitutional amendment arguments about finding an excuse to carry guns have naught to do with saving or assisting people.

 

[RocketMedic]

Horse EMS would rock.

 

[Hockey]

Anyone see the story about the Alabama FF who shot another FF on a call, while trying to take down a cow?

Need I say more?