concealed weapon carry

[eprex]

I doubt you're particularly familiar with the actual details of the case I think you're referring to...

The "family business" is firearms training, specifically handguns, concealed carry, and self defense. There's no "trickiness" in the real world, games with circumstances usually come out pretty quickly.

Folks....mindset is key. A gun is a tool that makes it easier to survive/defend yourself but by no means the only one. It really comes down to making a conscious choice how far you're willing to go to defend yourself from a potentially deadly situation and figuring out how to apply that to situations you may find yourself in.

I think you're making assumptions, but I was vague so I don't blame you for it.

 

[Carlos Danger]

You stated that everyone has the right to defend themselves. Are you now only referring to licensed gun carriers?

No.

You are missing the point.

 

[eprex]

you sure about that? the USSC might made their ruling, but I am not sure your conclusion was accurate[YOUTUBE]RyJFD6BhQFY[/YOUTUBE]

Jesus christ that guy was annoying.

'No sir, you can't have my first name'

 

[eprex]

You said

This is the whole thing right here.

Every individual has an inherent natural right to self-defense.

That right should not be suspended just because you show up at work, or go a movie theater, or a school, or anywhere else.

And then you said

Incidents involving those lawfully carrying guns are extremely rare.

So what is your point exactly? Enlighten me

 

[Carlos Danger]

This is the whole thing right here.

Every individual has an inherent natural right to self-defense.

That right should not be suspended just because you show up at work, or go a movie theater, or a school, or anywhere else.

This gets a bit tricky when actually applied to the real world. What's to stop people from saying they were defending themselves when they weren't? A recent court case comes to mind.

Incidents involving those lawfully carrying guns are extremely rare.

You stated that everyone has the right to defend themselves. Are you now only referring to licensed gun carriers?

No.

You are missing the point.

So what is your point exactly? Enlighten me

Since you are the one who is being cryptic and who appears to be making a passive attempt at pointing out a perceived flaw in my reasoning, a more appropriate question is, what is your point?

I made 2 simple, straightforward statements in a total of 4 sentences.

You are certainly free to disagree, but I don't think I can make my point any clearer.

Perhaps you should take the time to do some research and enlighten yourself, rather than expecting to be spoon fed?

 

[ffemt8978]

Play nice or become the focus of my complete and undivided attention.

 

[mycrofft]

Posters, how does this impact EMS? I haven't seen the words "ROSC", "IV", "EKG", or "belt/boots" for paragraphs.

I move we ban second amendment posts from the site. We have established that emergency MEDICINE does not include or require bearing arms. Re-hashing just irritates those who are going to be here for a while, and the fly by nights who have to aggressively discuss their urban gunfighter dreams will leave because there isn't ENOUGH about guns and such.

 

[errey]

If its really that much of a concern for your safety wear body armour which many EMS personnel wear here.

 

[Bullets]

My issue with this always lied in states that freely issued CCW permits, like Florida. So the state says they trust you to carry a firearm when you are just walking around shopping for Ho-Hos at the Walmart, but as soon as you put on a uniform and pick up NARCOTICS! then we cant trust you to carry that sidearm with you.

Seems hypocritical

Employer policy non-withstanding, as they have the right to set whatever policy the see fit

 

[RocketMedic]

Umm...we do deny service until calls are completely safe. Do you not do this?

Do we? Do we scout the call, account for all occupants of the home, secure all firearms and post guards everywhere and only then go in, or do we show up, knock on the door and bravely venture into the unknown with a hopeful "theres no one obviously here trying to kill me". This situation the firefighters found themselves in was unavoidable- they were ambushed by a gunman inside a residence, probably with limited access, and how do you try and escape when it means probable death for you or a good friend?

EMS, as a whole, goes into potentially dangerous places all the time. Here in Oklahoma, a majority of the homes I visit have firearms, alcohol, and stressed-out people. Its a nasty combination I combat by staying in the home as little as possible and only really following the "Lifenet" when it is a verifiably safe scene, ie a nursing home or Grandma really is home alone.

This incident has taught me to never get complacent, be ready to make a break for it if I can, and be prepared to get violent fast if needed, be it a fist, a knife, or a gun if I can get it. I might also need to talk and wait it out, as these guys did. Not having a firearm hobbles my potential responses considerably, but I do share the general sentiments of the board that EMS providers as a whole are not trained enough to carry without massive changes to existing policies and procedure. Sending police to more calls is a nonstarter here- that would literally take thousands of officers for no benefit in OKC alone.

Operationally, Fire is getting cancelled a lot less. More people = more control.

 

[RocketMedic]

If its really that much of a concern for your safety wear body armour which many EMS personnel wear here.

Body armor is just armor, it is passive threat mitigation. The best way to mitigate a threat is to avoid it. Failing that, massive, overwhelming force to neutralize that threat immediately. EMS leadership that thinks a vest = scene safety, a substitute for real deterrents or a deterrent in and of itself are idiots. The vest is the last part of a system of passive and active defenses.

Personally, I want to run every call with a fire team of 11Bs, armor and rifles, clearing homes and ensuring evildoers stay away from me. I cant do that, so I settle for a hefty dose of politeness and lots of people on-scene and short exposures.

 

[truetiger]

I'm not going to imply that it is our job to secure a scene/perform law enforcement duties, however, it IS our JOB to come home every night. A concealed firearm is just that, concealed. The patient/by standers won't know its there until the patient/ by standers become a threat to the crew warranting the use of deadly force to defend a life.

I work in a county that is 700+ square miles and maybe has 3 deputies on at time, if we're lucky. Routinely sending them on EMS calls isn't an option. Their ETA's to scenes are already extended to begin with. If the scene becomes unsafe, its just you and your partner.

To those who argue that concealing a firearm introduces a gun to the scene, out in the rural area you must assume that there already is a firearm on the scene and treat the scene as such. The idea behind "conceal" and carry is that nobody knows its there. Keep it appropriately concealed and they won't know to grab for it.

If your every day Joe is allowed to bring his concealed firearm to places such as Wal Mart, restaurants, etc, why am I a bad guy for wanting my concealed weapon in places that have a significantly higher risk of incident?

 

[CFal]

I'd love to see somebody do a good study of which of those three strategies results in the lowest number of providers injured or killed. My bet is on assigning PD to every call. I love that method.

Assigning PD to every call is the best method in my opinion, especially when the police are trained as FRs and may get there faster, potentially life saving

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/106/9/1058.long

 

[usalsfyre]

I think you're making assumptions, but I was vague so I don't blame you for it.

** Quoted post removed **

Eprex, you're being a passive aggressive for reasons no one can begin to understand. At this point I, and I would bet most others have NO idea exactly what you're trying to say other than some VERY vague notion your a pacifist. Which is your prerogative, but probably won't work out in your favor if you chose to play the game of hitting people up for reactions then trying to make them feel stupid for that reaction in real life. If you have a point, make it. If not, stop trying to hold yourself up as intellectually superior.

Anecdotally I have found very few TRUE pacifist (the I would never harm another even if they were harming me) have ever seen the evil people are capable of inflicting on each other. There's a fairly popular blogger out there that has a post about hauling your "inner animal" out and having a good look at it. Probably something everyone should think about.

 

[ffemt8978]

I meant what I said about playing nice...

 

[nemedic]

I meant what I said about playing nice...

Maybe they are into playing rough............

 

[mycrofft]

Maybe the word "you" ought to be ruled out and the word "I" put in. Don't talk about other people's issues, talk about your own feelings and issues. I can't be responsible for other people's stuff, but I can be about my own. Nuff said, bowing out.

 

[DrParasite]

If your every day Joe is allowed to bring his concealed firearm to places such as Wal Mart, restaurants, etc, why am I a bad guy for wanting my concealed weapon in places that have a significantly higher risk of incident?

Because the public (and many in this field) want you to remain a soft target, that people know they can both push around and attack because you aren't allowed to carry weapons to shoot back.

I'm far from a gun nut, but as Bullets said, it's a very hypocritical point of view.

Assigning PD to every call is the best method in my opinion, especially when the police are trained as FRs and may get there faster, potentially life saving

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/106/9/1058.long

Did you actually read the article? it says having cops with defibs save lives. it makes sense, there are more cops than firemen, more cops than ems workers, and they are already in their cards, so their response times are lower. I am totally ok with having cops respond to all cardiac arrests, as they should; after all, they are going to a potential homicide until proven otherwise (after all, a death needs to be investigated).

nowhere does the article say PD should respond to ALL calls. further, the arguement can also be made that they need no EMS training at all, since their are now public access defibs, so they just show up, apply the defib, and cpr the person (since time is needed and EARLY CPR and defib save lives).

 

[Carlos Danger]

Posters, how does this impact EMS?

It has a lot to do with EMS, because EMS folks can find easily themselves in the similar types of hazardous situations that police do.

Remember, when second count, the cops are only minutes away...

I move we ban second amendment posts from the site. We have established that emergency MEDICINE does not include or require bearing arms. Re-hashing just irritates those who are going to be here for a while, and the fly by nights who have to aggressively discuss their urban gunfighter dreams will leave because there isn't ENOUGH about guns and such.

Of course emergency medicine per se does not require the use of weapons.

But the individual's right to protect themselves does. Not the least of which are those who frequently venture into dangerous places in order to help others.

No one has yet been able to explain why an on-duty paramedic (or meter maid, or parking ticket-issuer, or anyone else) / CCW holder's right to self protection should be any less recognized when that person is on duty than when they are off.

Hospitals have armed guards.

I know for a fact that many police officers would not want to go into the types of places that paramedics frequently do, if they were not allowed to carry their weapons.

 

[Bullets]

It has a lot to do with EMS, because EMS folks can find easily themselves in the similar types of hazardous situations that police do.

Remember, when second count, the cops are only minutes away...



Of course emergency medicine per se does not require the use of weapons.

But the individual's right to protect themselves does. Not the least of which are those who frequently venture into dangerous places in order to help others.

No one has yet been able to explain why an on-duty paramedic (or meter maid, or parking ticket-issuer, or anyone else) / CCW holder's right to self protection should be any less recognized when that person is on duty than when they are off.

Hospitals have armed guards.

I know for a fact that many police officers would not want to go into the types of places that paramedics frequently do, if they were not allowed to carry their weapons.

Heck there is a hospital in NJ that has its own POLICE DEPARTMENT!

While carrying a firearm is not directly related to medical treatment, as long as EMS personnel going to continue to be the targets of criminals, this issue is going to present itself. While sending LE to every call is ideal, in many systems it isnt a reality. In urban areas the cops have more calls then units available, so routine medical calls take lower priorities. In rural areas you have more miles to cover and less units to do it. Only in true suburban areas will you get cops on every call.

And until someone can explain why someone who holds a valid CCW permit must relinquish that right when they go on duty, it still wont make any sense