concealed weapon carry

[Rialaigh]

Prove it...

Private property owners can grant access to property based on contingencies. I can have you over for a cookout on my private property, you can get drunk, that's all within the law, then I can have you removed because your drunk (or any other reason at all). I can then create a policy that says your free to come to my property but if you drink on it I will have you removed. I'm not taking away your "right" to drink, I'm taking away your privilege to drink on my property.

To put it in better terms people always should have the right to food or the right to sustenance for life, That does not mean I have to let you eat on my property. I am not "killing you" or condemning you to dying of starvation because you can't eat on my property. I'm just telling you you have to do it elsewhere.


The back of an ambulance is not public property, Neither is the station you run out of. Private property owners make the rules. When you step off the curb into the back of an ambulance you are entering private property and if the property owner doesn't want firearms on the ambulance, you abide or find another job.

 

[ffemt8978]

Private property owners can grant access to property based on contingencies. I can have you over for a cookout on my private property, you can get drunk, that's all within the law, then I can have you removed because your drunk (or any other reason at all). I can then create a policy that says your free to come to my property but if you drink on it I will have you removed. I'm not taking away your "right" to drink, I'm taking away your privilege to drink on my property.

To put it in better terms people always should have the right to food or the right to sustenance for life, That does not mean I have to let you eat on my property. I am not "killing you" or condemning you to dying of starvation because you can't eat on my property. I'm just telling you you have to do it elsewhere.


The back of an ambulance is not public property, Neither is the station you run out of. Private property owners make the rules. When you step off the curb into the back of an ambulance you are entering private property and if the property owner doesn't want firearms on the ambulance, you abide or find another job.

Now we're getting somewhere...

Like I said earlier, the government doesn't grant rights but it can restrict them. And through those restrictions, private property owners can impose restrictions. However, restricting a right is a far cry from turning it into a "privilege" as you stated.

To continue with a side note, you stated "The back of an ambulance is not public property, Neither is the station you run out of." Wouldn't this depend upon if you are a public agency or a private company?

 

[ffemt8978]

I think the catch here is that you always have a right to self defense. However, the tools available to exercise that right can be restricted by both society and property owners.

This is the point I am trying to make. However, a restriction on a right does not turn that right into a privilege.

 

[Rialaigh]

Now we're getting somewhere...

Like I said earlier, the government doesn't grant rights but it can restrict them. And through those restrictions, private property owners can impose restrictions. However, restricting a right is a far cry from turning it into a "privilege" as you stated.

To continue with a side note, you stated "The back of an ambulance is not public property, Neither is the station you run out of." Wouldn't this depend upon if you are a public agency or a private company?

No, public property is a subset of state or federal property. Stations, the property they lie on, and ambulances would fall under a different subset of state (or county or city) property.


And as far as restricting a right verse turning it into a privilege. I am not of the belief that people have the "right" to defend themselves with any means they feel necessary at any time and any place. I am of the belief that people have the right to reasonably defend themselves. The reasonably applies to choice of defense, time, and place. I believe anything above and beyond that is a privilege

 

[Aidey]

The back of an ambulance is not public property, Neither is the station you run out of. Private property owners make the rules. When you step off the curb into the back of an ambulance you are entering private property and if the property owner doesn't want firearms on the ambulance, you abide or find another job.

Besides the back of the amb and your station, you've got the the schools, hospitals, jails, nursing homes, libraries, court houses, etc that all have signs saying "Weapon Free Zone" or something along those lines. There are plenty of places we go into that do not allow people to carry.

 

[Rialaigh]

Back to the original topic though. I haven't looked but I didn't really see anyone bring up a percentage or study on "preventable" homicides in EMS. And by preventable I mean preventable if the EMS provider had been carrying a weapon. I am just not of the belief that there are enough preventable homicides or injuries preventable by carrying to justify the significant risk.

 

[Rialaigh]

Besides the back of the amb and your station, you've got the the schools, hospitals, jails, nursing homes, libraries, court houses, etc that all have signs saying "Weapon Free Zone" or something along those lines. There are plenty of places we go into that do not allow people to carry.

Libraries are the only place in that list considered public property if I am not mistaken, and I have no issue if you want to argue we can carry in libraries, I'm fine with that. Everything else on that list is a different subset of property.

 

[JPINFV]

Besides the back of the amb and your station, you've got the the schools, hospitals, jails, nursing homes, libraries, court houses, etc that all have signs saying "Weapon Free Zone" or something along those lines. There are plenty of places we go into that do not allow people to carry.

The only way those signs prevent people from carrying is if you pull it off the wall and beat them over the head with it.

 

[JPINFV]

Private property owners can grant access to property based on contingencies. I can have you over for a cookout on my private property, you can get drunk, that's all within the law, then I can have you removed because your drunk (or any other reason at all). I can then create a policy that says your free to come to my property but if you drink on it I will have you removed. I'm not taking away your "right" to drink, I'm taking away your privilege to drink on my property.

Drunk in pub-lic?

 

[Aidey]

Libraries are the only place in that list considered public property if I am not mistaken, and I have no issue if you want to argue we can carry in libraries, I'm fine with that. Everything else on that list is a different subset of property.

That was my point. Plenty of places we go every day already prohibit carrying a gun. We really aren't "in public" all that much.

 

[BandageBrigade]

Besides the back of the amb and your station, you've got the the schools, hospitals, jails, nursing homes, libraries, court houses, etc that all have signs saying "Weapon Free Zone" or something along those lines. There are plenty of places we go into that do not allow people to carry.

Excluding special circumstances such as jails and the like; in many cases if I walk into a place (that has a gun or weapons free zone sign) with a concealed firearm and you find out. All that can happen is you call the cops and I maybe get a trespassing charge.

 

[DrParasite]

\As far as I know none of us have a government given right to defend ourselves while at work (when the work is not on your property).

wait what? you don't have a right to defend yourself at work?

So let me get this straight: you are working on the ambulance, in my house treating my mom, and I decide to start beating you with a baseball bat. for no reason at all, other than I'm drunk. you don't have a right to do anything to stop me?

or you ar working and I, who is your boss, and I start yelling at you, and end up hitting you with a chair... you don't have the right to defend yourself?

or your back on the truck, and I am high as a kite on PCP. you get called to the unknown problem, no PD available, so they send you to check it out. Once you knock on the door, I answer and start beating the crap out of you, just because I can. Just so we are all clear, based on your statement, you can't do anything about it, because you don't have a "government given right to defend [yourself] while at work."

Everyone has the right to defend themselves, when faced with a threat to their life or limb. No one goes to work expecting not to come home. Yes, we should all avoid said bad situations, let the LEOs handle them, but if push comes to shove, and you end up trapped in a bad situation where your life is threatened, you absolutely have a right to defend yourself and go down fighting. and anyone who tells you otherwise if a F'n moron.

 

[Rialaigh]

wait what? you don't have a right to defend yourself at work?

So let me get this straight: you are working on the ambulance, in my house treating my mom, and I decide to start beating you with a baseball bat. for no reason at all, other than I'm drunk. you don't have a right to do anything to stop me?

or you ar working and I, who is your boss, and I start yelling at you, and end up hitting you with a chair... you don't have the right to defend yourself?

or your back on the truck, and I am high as a kite on PCP. you get called to the unknown problem, no PD available, so they send you to check it out. Once you knock on the door, I answer and start beating the crap out of you, just because I can. Just so we are all clear, based on your statement, you can't do anything about it, because you don't have a "government given right to defend [yourself] while at work."

Everyone has the right to defend themselves, when faced with a threat to their life or limb. No one goes to work expecting not to come home. Yes, we should all avoid said bad situations, let the LEOs handle them, but if push comes to shove, and you end up trapped in a bad situation where your life is threatened, you absolutely have a right to defend yourself and go down fighting. and anyone who tells you otherwise if a F'n moron.

I said government given right, as in Law. And it was in specific reference to guns....as the discussion topic says.

I am all for the right to reasonable defense. That means reasonable force (weapon choice or defense choice), reasonable time, and reasonable place...

 

[BandageBrigade]

Back to the original topic though. I haven't looked but I didn't really see anyone bring up a percentage or study on "preventable" homicides in EMS. And by preventable I mean preventable if the EMS provider had been carrying a weapon. I am just not of the belief that there are enough preventable homicides or injuries preventable by carrying to justify the significant risk.

Not stating that I am for or against carrying on duty, but is one preventable homicide not enough to make you think attitudes or policy's need changed?

 

[JPINFV]

I said government given right, as in Law. And it was in specific reference to guns....as the discussion topic says.

In political theory, rights are not granted by the government. They may be enumerated, but they aren't "granted."

Of course theory and practice tend to differ, especially in non-free societies.

 

[FLdoc2011]

Back to the original topic though. I haven't looked but I didn't really see anyone bring up a percentage or study on "preventable" homicides in EMS. And by preventable I mean preventable if the EMS provider had been carrying a weapon. I am just not of the belief that there are enough preventable homicides or injuries preventable by carrying to justify the significant risk.

What's the significant risk? You bring it up like there's would be a known, significant risk JUST from the act of concealed carry.

The act alone just doesn't bring that risk in my opinion. In just about every state you have a large number of citizens who routine concealed carry or open carry on a daily basis and there haven't been stories of guns suddenly going off, or carriers shooting each other or cities turning into Wild West frontiers....

I think it's an individual decision. If the state law doesn't forbid it then I think you guys should be able to. It could certainly be within the companies domain (a public agency may be different) to not allow it, but if not then I have no problem with it.

I personally conceal carry, but I do it for protection of me and my family. It is by no means in the hope or thought of preventing a crime I may come across. It is a tool for personal protection and something I would have no trouble you guys have available as well.

 

[Clipper1]

I personally conceal carry, but I do it for protection of me and my family. It is by no means in the hope or thought of preventing a crime I may come across. It is a tool for personal protection and something I would have no trouble you guys have available as well.

Do you carry while working in the hospital? The administration approves?

Is there at least a secure locker for you and the Paramedics to place your weapons in at work?

Considering all the bad situations which have occurred in the ERs because of weapons and close working conditions, I don't see this as a wise decision. I am all for personal protection at home but when your hands are busy working a patient, you may not notice how vulnerable you weapon is.

 

[FLdoc2011]

Do you carry while working in the hospital? The administration approves?

Is there at least a secure locker for you and the Paramedics to place your weapons in at work?

Considering all the bad situations which have occurred in the ERs because of weapons and close working conditions, I don't see this as a wise decision. I am all for personal protection at home but when your hands are busy working a patient, you may not notice how vulnerable you weapon is.

I don't carry at work. Personal decision with many factors.... Just not practical for what I do, I'm sure hospital admin would not "approve", and I'm at times back and forth from a local VA hospital (federal facility so legally no weapons).

But what bad situations are you referring to? Are these bad situations involving a lawful firearm carrier, or are these gang bangers who were carrying a glove loose in their waistband or someone intent on causing harm coming in with that intention.... different scenarios than what I think is being proposed here.

 

[Rialaigh]

Not stating that I am for or against carrying on duty, but is one preventable homicide not enough to make you think attitudes or policy's need changed?

1 life is not even close enough for me to even think about it. To make good economical decisions (Especially in healthcare) you have to put a value on a life. And frankly arming 150,000 (or even a significant fraction) EMS workers that deal with drunks, druggies, violent patients, and the like on a daily basis in cramped situations, darkness, chaos, etc etc...seems like a terrible idea. Frankly I would bet that if we armed 150,000 EMS workers who worked full time we would have more then 10 shootings this year that involved the patient taking the gun or accidental discharge. The study I pulled up showed 10 total homicides over 5 years (who knows if any were preventable)

I hate to be cold and calculated about a persons life but you have to be when making good economical decisions.

 

[Rialaigh]

What's the significant risk? You bring it up like there's would be a known, significant risk JUST from the act of concealed carry.

The act alone just doesn't bring that risk in my opinion. In just about every state you have a large number of citizens who routine concealed carry or open carry on a daily basis and there haven't been stories of guns suddenly going off, or carriers shooting each other or cities turning into Wild West frontiers....

I think it's an individual decision. If the state law doesn't forbid it then I think you guys should be able to. It could certainly be within the companies domain (a public agency may be different) to not allow it, but if not then I have no problem with it.

I personally conceal carry, but I do it for protection of me and my family. It is by no means in the hope or thought of preventing a crime I may come across. It is a tool for personal protection and something I would have no trouble you guys have available as well.

EMS workers as a generalization get in physical altercations with patients on a very very frequent basis in cramped spaces. The EMT that I was with 2 weeks ago got bit by a 20 year old female, broke skin through her sweatshirt and tshirt on the shoulder, and It took every bit of all 3 of us to get her held down to the stretcher. Having a gun in any situation like that is not going to help me worth a darn and its going to be a decent risk to have a loaded (especially one in the chamber) fire arm in a situation in which both my hands are tied up doing something (like attempting to hold the patient) and the patient is still not controlled.

The only inherent risk to carrying concealed is yourself. There are many risks however to carrying concealed within an EMS setting.