Concealed Weapons

[BYNFD09]

I am from Wisconsin and we are soon to be getting concealed firearms permits. Some LE agencies have indicated they will NOT take possession of concealed firearms from patients unless an arrest is following. How do EMS in states that have concealed carry handle weapons found on patients?
Any help will be greatly appreciated.

 

[jjesusfreak01]

This is just some thinking not based on any protocols or rules I know of. I would take temporary possession of the firearm if the patient was unconscious and the police refused to take it and turn it over to hospital security, as the patient can't carry them in the hospital anyways. If the patient is conscious, I would advise them that they will not be able to take their firearm into the hospital and request that a security officer meet us at the entrance to take possession of the weapon until the patient is discharged.

Also, if the pt was the least bit combative, anxious, or impaired by substance (and possibly if I planned to make them that way) or injury in any way, I would probably call up the police COC until someone agreed to take the gun. No matter the injury, you can take as long as you need onscene for safety reasons.

 

[imadriver]

In Florida here guns / knives / pool cues are everywhere.

If we run into something like that we just call for the Police take it. Usually if the situation is such, they are already there. If the patient is critical and I just happen to see it, then I drop it a little distance in a slightly concealed area (back seat of a car, under a coffee table, so on ) and if I see it as a possible high threat in the future, I'm comfortable enough with most guns to discharge the clip and clear the chamber. If there is a gun on scene and no PD, we either withdraw if there is a threat, or call for PD and keep the patient (as inconspicuously as possible) away from the weapon. Make sure you document! And Let PD / Dispatch know about it!

Always stay in communication with your dispatch! We have a couple special radio codes as to not alert anyone else on scene. But it's pretty much:
"Firearm on scene, no immediate threat, we are okay, send PD"
"Firearm on scene, high threat, withdrawing, need PD, but we are still alive"
"Exit Blocked / Man Down / Oh Sh*t"

 

[bigbaldguy]

Generally it takes a month or two for LE to get onboard with concealed weapon protocol. I would be very hesitant to take possession of a loaded fire arm unless there was just absolutely no other way of dealing with. Obviously you don't want to leave a firearm sitting on the side of the road, but maybe locking it in the patients trunk could be an option. Your LE will get onboard eventually once they get over the initial "we don't wanna deal with it" phase.

 

[Akulahawk]

IMHO, most of the time, if your patient is carrying and has a license or permit to do so, you're going to be at little risk by that patient... unless you're dealing with someone who's gone quite far down the irrational road. If your patient is conscious, ask them what they want done with the firearm. Don't just grab for it though. Reach for my gun without asking and I'll give you a beating you'll never forget... or possibly remember. I'd consider that a direct attempt at threatening my life.

If it's in a holster and the patient is unconscious... take the whole assembly off, leave the gun in the holster and don't fark around with it. The gun will likely be a LOT safer in the holster than out of it. Notify LE or hospital security to take protective custody of the firearm.

 

[medicdan]

Coincidentally, I had a scenario requiring it over the summer. My experience (at former employers) has been to call PD to the scene non-emergent, and they have been happy to take possession of the firearm until the patient reclaims it.

I have a personal policy that only uniformed LEOs and COs are permitted firearms in my ambulance, and only if they are supervising a patient, never when they are a patient.

When the patient is released from the hospital, they are welcome to reclaim their firearm at the police station, upon showing valid LTC/CCP.

 

[bigbaldguy]

So did anyone actually read the ops original statement regarding the fact the LE in his area has said they will not take possession of the firearms?

 

[medicdan]

So did anyone actually read the ops original statement regarding the fact the LE in his area has said they will not take possession of the firearms?

Yes, and I was saying that there are departments that are happy to take custody of firearms...

I do not have an LTC, and do not feel comfortable handling possibly armed firearms. I frankly don't know how to check to see if the gun is armed or to disarm it, and if my patient is incapable of unloading, i'm forced to leave the gun on scene- I won't allow it in my vehicle unless verifiably unloaded.

 

[Akulahawk]

So did anyone actually read the ops original statement regarding the fact the LE in his area has said they will not take possession of the firearms?

Yes... that's why I included hospital security. If LE won't handle the firearm (and may not have authority to do so unless the LTC/CCW holder is about to be arrested), security should have the ability to take temporary possession of the firearm and store it safely until the patient or designated representative can retrieve it from storage.

The directions about removing the entire holster/gun assembly and leaving it as-is was aimed at people that do not feel comfortable with handling firearms. Leaving a firearm on scene is a bad idea if you can't leave it with someone responsible. If you were the one that handled it last... and someone finds the firearm you left unsecured, guess who is responsible?

 

[adamjh3]

Leave it on scene? That's even more stupid than pulling it out of the holster in the first place. It should be in SOMEBODY'S possession at all times.

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[bigbaldguy]

Turning it over to hospital security is an excellent option except how do you get it to the hospital if you're not allowed to carry it in the ambulance. Not sure about the OPs outfit but most of the outfits I have had contact with specifically forbid taking a weapon onto the ambulance under any circumstances. However I do agree that leaving the weapon unsecured at the scene is the worst possible way of handling this situation. If all else failed I would place the weapon in one of the exterior compartments on the truck, lock the compartment and not touch it until I had a supervisor present, and of course would thoroughly document why I couldn't leave the weapon on scene (no secure area, no responsible adult ect..) Eventually most LE departments catch on that it is in their best interest to accept possession of these weapons. It can be a tricky line to walk, on the one hand you don't want to violate your protocols regarding a weapon on the truck and on the other you may not be able to wait around for someone to show up and take possession of the weapon. Generally it boils down to doing what it justifiable given the circumstances and best interest of the patient. You have to be able to justify your actions, but then this goes for anything you do at work.

 

[mcdonl]

In Florida here guns / knives / pool cues are everywhere.

If we run into something like that we just call for the Police take it. Usually if the situation is such, they are already there. If the patient is critical and I just happen to see it, then I drop it a little distance in a slightly concealed area (back seat of a car, under a coffee table, so on ) and if I see it as a possible high threat in the future, I'm comfortable enough with most guns to discharge the clip and clear the chamber. If there is a gun on scene and no PD, we either withdraw if there is a threat, or call for PD and keep the patient (as inconspicuously as possible) away from the weapon. Make sure you document! And Let PD / Dispatch know about it!

Always stay in communication with your dispatch! We have a couple special radio codes as to not alert anyone else on scene. But it's pretty much:
"Firearm on scene, no immediate threat, we are okay, send PD"
"Firearm on scene, high threat, withdrawing, need PD, but we are still alive"
"Exit Blocked / Man Down / Oh Sh*t"

It is sort of funny... your whole post assumes the firearm makes the scene unsafe, that there was a law broken and that PD needs or cares to know about it.

Also, it is a magazine not a "clip" unless they happen to be carrying a WW2 era rifle.

 

[Akulahawk]

It is sort of funny... your whole post assumes the firearm makes the scene unsafe, that there was a law broken and that PD needs or cares to know about it.

Also, it is a magazine not a "clip" unless they happen to be carrying a WW2 era rifle.

My carrying a firearm in public breaks no laws, generally speaking, unless I attempt it in certain places. In those places were "everybody" carries a gun or has one around somewhere and it's not illegal, Law Enforcement won't bat an eye (or care) when you happen to find a firearm on someone who is otherwise not breaking any laws. They may care if you leave a firearm unsecured on scene though...

 

[dstevens58]

Having been on both sides of this issue (LEO and EMT), law enforcement usually has no problems booking a gun for "safe keeping" and I have done so. No way would I leave a firearm on the scene. It would always be turned over to a responsible person, who in turn would give it to law enforcement if they were late in arriving on the scene.

 

[DarkStarr]

A firearm is only as dangerous as the hands that it's in.

That said, it won't fire unless you pull the trigger.

That said, don't pull the trigger (and never sweep anyone).

 

[adamjh3]

A firearm is only as dangerous as the hands that it's in.

That said, it won't fire unless you pull the trigger.

That said, don't pull the trigger (and never sweep anyone).

That said, if you do handle it, don't butterfinger it. Grip it firmly and keep your booger hook off the trigger

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[Jon]

Yes, and I was saying that there are departments that are happy to take custody of firearms...

I do not have an LTC, and do not feel comfortable handling possibly armed firearms. I frankly don't know how to check to see if the gun is armed or to disarm it, and if my patient is incapable of unloading, i'm forced to leave the gun on scene- I won't allow it in my vehicle unless verifiably unloaded.

Dan, Come down here... we can have a range day!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`


PA's protocols cover this. EMS should have PD handle the firearm if at all possible. If it is necessary for EMS to move the firearm, EMS should carefully move the firearm avoiding putting ANYTHING inside the trigger guard, don't point it at anything/anyone important, and secure it somewhere safe if possible. Protocols say not to attempt to clear the gun.

In my trucks, it would be placed in a (preferably lockable) compartment without any small items, and be left alone.


Personally, in a month, I'll be a NRA-certified Pistol Instructor. I'm familiar with most common handguns. If I am comfortable clearing XYZ gun, I'm going to clear it for my safety.

 

[Sasha]

Dan, Come down here... we can have a range day!

Home home on the range. Where the deer and the antelope play.

Being IFT we dont run into very many guns.

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[JPINFV]

Jon, trap shooting > pistols or rifles. My targets actually move.

Being IFT we dont run into very many guns.

You haven't worked with me apparently.

 

[RocketMedic]

A weapon will not fire unless manipulated, so I just leave it in the holster. I generally try to leave it with a responsible adult or a secure area.