Concealed Weapons

[mcdonl]

Jon, trap shooting > pistols or rifles. My targets actually move.



You haven't worked with me apparently.

IDPA can be a pretty good challenge... YOU move, not the targets

 

[DrParasite]

I'm going to go against the grain on this one. it's a police matter, they should be the one to handle the firearm.

what training did you receive in EMS school about handling guns? I'm guessing the answer is 0. so what business do you have handing a loaded firearm if you have no formal training in in (related to your present job I mean)? Guess what job did involve firearms training?

I am completely in agreement that patient's should not bring loaded firearms into the ambulance, CCW permit or not. If we can't carry guns on the truck, neither can they. If they want the ambulance, tell them to secure their weapon, it is there responsibility.

If the cops won't deal with the weapon, than yes, leave it at the side of the road. Document that the cops refused to handle the situation that is well within their training. call a police supervisor and get his badge number too. It's not a good idea, but it's not our responsibility if PD won't do their job.

If EMS wants to be considered an equal to PD and fire, we need to stand up for ourselves, and stop being pushed around by the other two. Just because they refused to do their job doesn't mean we should let them get away with it and do it for them. it isn't our responsibility to deal with the patient's firearm. that job falls on PD, not the local gun nut, not the avid hunter and if the patient is going in an ambulance where guns aren't allowed, than ether PD takes it, or the patient gives. it to a responsible party.

either way, it's something to have preplanned ahead of time, by people in white shirts over coffee, not debated at the last minute. and if EMS wants to be considered one of the big boys, they need to act like the big boys and stand up for what's right, not just give in to every one else.

 

[JPINFV]

what training did you receive in EMS school about handling guns? I'm guessing the answer is 0. so what business do you have handing a loaded firearm if you have no formal training in in (related to your present job I mean)? Guess what job did involve firearms training?

I didn't receive any training in EMS school about driving an ambulance either.

I didn't receive any real training on body mechanics in EMS school either.

So, apparently EMS doesn't involve ambulances or moving patients from one surface to another.

I am completely in agreement that patient's should not bring loaded firearms into the ambulance, CCW permit or not. If we can't carry guns on the truck, neither can they. If they want the ambulance, tell them to secure their weapon, it is there responsibility.

So Bob, the 60 year old CCW is out picking up something from the local supermarket and has a MI. Opps, Sorry Bob, but we have to waste time waiting for PD, who may very well have an extended response time, because it's your responsibility to secure your firearm and you decided to be alone and in public when you decided to suffer a medical emergency.

If the cops won't deal with the weapon, than yes, leave it at the side of the road.

...and if the weapon is then stolen and used in the commission of a crime, I hope hell and brim fire rains down on the crew who decides that an inanimate object is too dangerous because they're scared with zero good reason to be.

they need to act like the big boys and stand up for what's right, not just give in to every one else.

You mean like giving into The Brady Bunch?

 

[adamjh3]

If the cops won't deal with the weapon, than yes, leave it at the side of the road.

Where Johnny gangbanger can get a hold of it and use it in the comission of a crime? Or little Timmy can find it and blow his little sister's head off playing with it?

Yeah, that's the smart, responsible thing to do.

Its not a threat when its holstered. It doesn't go bang unless someone's handling it.

Guns don't kill people accidently. Stupid people kill people accidently.

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[bigdogems]

Its just political BS. They aren't likely to refuse. Well maybe if you work in Madison.... Useless hippies!!! In general if someone has a CHL your not going to know about it unless its a major trauma and your making them naked

 

[bstone]

I think concealed weapons are a good thing and there should be more of them. Legal, of course.

 

[Katy]

I think concealed weapons are a good thing and there should be more of them. Legal, of course.

This. Protect yourself.

 

[bstone]

This. Protect yourself.

I do.

 

[Katy]

I do.

I figured with your opinion on the matter, you just might.

 

[DrParasite]

I didn't receive any training in EMS school about driving an ambulance either.

I received very basic training about driving an ambulance in EMT school, with a lot more training in CEVO and EVOC.

I didn't receive any real training on body mechanics in EMS school either.

So, apparently EMS doesn't involve ambulances or moving patients from one surface to another.

we went over lifting devices, carrying devices, and needed to show proficiency in the using of them. if you didn't, than your course sucked, and you should have demanded a refund.

So Bob, the 60 year old CCW is out picking up something from the local supermarket and has a MI. Opps, Sorry Bob, but we have to waste time waiting for PD, who may very well have an extended response time, because it's your responsibility to secure your firearm and you decided to be alone and in public when you decided to suffer a medical emergency.

that is a very good example. lets give another one and say Bob gets shot, and shot back striking the shooter & no one knows where the shooter is. Bob is bleeding to death, are you going to wait for PD to arrive and secure the scene? or are you going to run in and save Bob? What will you do in PD has an extended response?

If PD has an extended response time, do you disregard scene safety?

or even better, lets say the MI causes Bob to get hypoxic, and he suddenly starts to be come altered and think that the paramedics are not helping him, but trying to hurt him, and in his hypoxic state he pulls his CCW on the crew. than what?

...and if the weapon is then stolen and used in the commission of a crime, I hope hell and brim fire rains down on the crew who decides that an inanimate object is too dangerous because they're scared with zero good reason to be.

wouldn't have happened in PD had done their job and secured the weapon like they are supposed to. EMS isn't trained in weapons management, that's an LEO matter. It will still fall on the LEO for failing to do their job. or you can wait for PD.

Where Johnny gangbanger can get a hold of it and use it in the comission of a crime? Or little Timmy can find it and blow his little sister's head off playing with it?

Yeah, that's the smart, responsible thing to do.

I never said it was the smart thing to do, but it's PD's failure to secure the weapon.

Its not a threat when its holstered. It doesn't go bang unless someone's handling it.

you are absolutely right. although I have heard of guns firing when dropped as well. but a gun not in the ambulance will not go off.

Guns don't kill people accidently. Stupid people kill people accidently.

or intentionally or due to an altered mental status due to a medical condition.

Being afraid of a firearm, and respecting the potential damage a firearm can inflict are two very different things.

Let the professionals who are trained in weapons management handle them.

 

[CheifBud]

Guns don't jump out and get you...

Its not a threat when its holstered. It doesn't go bang unless someone's handling it.

Guns don't kill people accidently. Stupid people kill people accidently.

+1 ^^

If you are responsible for whether or not a patient lives or dies you need to have the common sense to not leave a weapon where it can be obtained by someone else. This is where I have to assume I need (or obviously my superior at that time) needs to control the weapon until it can be turned over to PD.

Yes, guns can be dangerous but leaving them laying around or even unattended is even more dangerous. I don't think it would take a lot of training statewide to show a paramedic how to handle a firearm, discharge a magazine, and clear the chamber or if the weapon is in a holster to remove the entire holster and place it in a designated safe area on the rig. (the safe perhaps) One Sat. afternoon call in a couple local PD's to train and it wouldn't take more than an hour or two. GUNS ARE NOT HOT LAVA OR DEMONS THAT WILL JUMP OUT AT YOU.

I also wonder why if John Q can very easily obtain and carry a weapon anywhere then why can't a trained PROFESSIONAL emergency health personnel who's job can call for almost anything should be able to in the least handle, contain, or transport until it can be turned over to PD or patient.
Furthermore if I respond to John Q who has a 14 y.o. son at home is it safer to leave this firearm in the home or within reach of other family members or residents who have no firearm training or god forbid endangering people from leaving a firearm sitting on Johns Coffee table.

Basically as soon as the firearm leaves the patient and if it does not fall directly into a police officers hands, SOMEONE is going to have to look after it and if my Chief does not object I WILL take control of the weapon as I KNOW I can trust myself as does my crew versus leaving it laying around or in the patients house where his son will be getting home from school or where someone who is NOT as competent in gun safety.... hell, as competent as I would hope a paramedic would be, could handle the weapon.

 

[bigbaldguy]

lets give another one and say Bob gets shot, and shot back striking the shooter & no one knows where the shooter is. Bob is bleeding to death, are you going to wait for PD to arrive and secure the scene? or are you going to run in and save Bob? What will you do in PD has an extended response?

If PD has an extended response time, do you disregard scene safety?

So your saying that leaving a gun at the scene in a MI scenario is no different then leaving the gun at the scene in a active shooter scenario? Whaaa?

 

[Tigger]

that is a very good example. lets give another one and say Bob gets shot, and shot back striking the shooter & no one knows where the shooter is. Bob is bleeding to death, are you going to wait for PD to arrive and secure the scene? or are you going to run in and save Bob? What will you do in PD has an extended response?

If PD has an extended response time, do you disregard scene safety?

or even better, lets say the MI causes Bob to get hypoxic, and he suddenly starts to be come altered and think that the paramedics are not helping him, but trying to hurt him, and in his hypoxic state he pulls his CCW on the crew. than what?

What if we just what ifed the situation to death? Problem solved.

wouldn't have happened in PD had done their job and secured the weapon like they are supposed to. EMS isn't trained in weapons management, that's an LEO matter. It will still fall on the LEO for failing to do their job. or you can wait for PD.I never said it was the smart thing to do, but it's PD's failure to secure the weapon.
you are absolutely right. although I have heard of guns firing when dropped as well. but a gun not in the ambulance will not go off.

I fail to see how the police would be at fault for securing a weapon that they did not know existed. Sorry but if someone is having an MI in a supermarket I am not waiting for the police if they have a delayed response time. "Sir I know you want to go to the hospital right now but we need to wait 25 minutes for the police to take possession of your weapon." That's how you get a patient to point his CCW at you. Leaving it in a public place and telling the police to come get it is a terrible idea too. How are the police supposed to control the weapon if they're not on scene.

I agree that this conversation needs to happen before the call does, how about working together with the police and holding an inservice on gun safety?

 

[adamjh3]

Is it PD's failure when they're not on scene? What will a jury think?

"Yes,your honor, I stand by my decision to leave a legally owned firearm in the middle of a busy grocery store. I felt it was safer than removing the holster from the patient and placing the firearm in a secure location on my ambulance. "

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[JPINFV]

I received very basic training about driving an ambulance in EMT school, with a lot more training in CEVO and EVOC. we went over lifting devices, carrying devices, and needed to show proficiency in the using of them. if you didn't, than your course sucked, and you should have demanded a refund.

Since you've limited the conversation to just the initial training, was CEVO and EVOC done in EMT class? How many hours did you log in an ambulance during EMT class?

Going over lifting and carrying devices and going over body mechanics are not the same thing. Sheet transfers? Wheel chair to gurney transfers? Or just, "Here's how you use a backboard"?

that is a very good example. lets give another one and say Bob gets shot, and shot back striking the shooter & no one knows where the shooter is. Bob is bleeding to death, are you going to wait for PD to arrive and secure the scene? or are you going to run in and save Bob? What will you do in PD has an extended response?

Let's see. One involves a crime and discharge of weapons, and the other doesn't. Are you saying that you would enter the scene if Bob didn't have a gun despite no police and that you don't know where the shooter is?

If PD has an extended response time, do you disregard scene safety?

I don't view the lawful carrying of a firearm as a scene safety issue in the sense of "OMG, the gun might leap out of the holster and pull it's own trigger" type of thinking. The mere presence of a fire arm is not a scene safety issue.

Going along this line of thinking, if there was a call at a shotgun range, would you require the entire range to be shut down just because you're on scene, despite the fact that the other stations besides the one you're at poses no risk to you?

or even better, lets say the MI causes Bob to get hypoxic, and he suddenly starts to be come altered and think that the paramedics are not helping him, but trying to hurt him, and in his hypoxic state he pulls his CCW on the crew. than what?

Irrelevant, as you would already be treating the patient by the time you found their firearm, and there are ways to safely secure a holstered firearm that doesn't require backing off for 5 minutes while the police respond.

wouldn't have happened in PD had done their job and secured the weapon like they are supposed to. EMS isn't trained in weapons management, that's an LEO matter. It will still fall on the LEO for failing to do their job. or you can wait for PD.I never said it was the smart thing to do, but it's PD's failure to secure the weapon.

Have fun making that argument because it's not going to fly... well... anyplace. It's almost like saying, "Well, I'm not trained to be a baby sitter, and we don't have enough places in the ambulance for all of the kids, so we're just going to leave the kids home alone because the police won't show up."

 

[DrParasite]

So your saying that leaving a gun at the scene in a MI scenario is no different then leaving the gun at the scene in a active shooter scenario? Whaaa?

no, I'm saying a gun is a gun, and it's PD's responsibly to handle firearms.

 

[DrParasite]

if my Chief does not object

wonder what your chief would say. and ask him why he would object.

 

[JPINFV]

...and thanks to this thread, I think I'll go trap shooting tomorrow.

 

[ffemt8978]

I agree that this conversation needs to happen before the call does, how about working together with the police and holding an inservice on gun safety?

Best comment of this thread, so far.

 

[ffemt8978]

...and thanks to this thread, I think I'll go trap shooting tomorrow.

Waiting for my Grendel upper to arrive before I go and test that and my new G20.