Concealed Weapons

[JPINFV]

I consider any firearm on scene to be dangerous.

Define "on scene." My parents store their guns in a locked display case in their bed room. I'd hate to think that the ability for them to get emergency medical care is going to be compromised because of guns in a locked case.

 

[imadriver]

Na, Any easily accessed firearm. I'm talking about, with use of common sense, weapons that can become a threat by an unruly person. Say, one sitting on the counter, on the patient, so on. If it's on the wall or in a safe I'm fine with it. And it's not that if someone has one on their hip I run out the door calling for help over the radio. I simply mean I approach it in a quick manner to improve the safety of me and the crew. As stated before, you don't know the people you treat 99% of the time. You have no idea what they are capable of. If I had one of my guns on my hip, and 911 was called, I would completely understand the hesitation of an EMS crew to approach me.

All I'm saying is that I would get it away, and get it secured. Of course you need to do it in a safe, non threatening calm manner, as to not make the situation worse.

Use common sense to judge if it's a possible threat or not.

 

[CAOX3]

I am from Wisconsin and we are soon to be getting concealed firearms permits. Some LE agencies have indicated they will NOT take possession of concealed firearms from patients unless an arrest is following. How do EMS in states that have concealed carry handle weapons found on patients?
Any help will be greatly appreciated.

I the cops are there they can handle it, if not we can secure it with security at the hospital. Im not a fan of guns but I handle it like I would any other potential threat.

In my experience they are not usually just lying on the ground or tucked in someones pants, there usually secured in the holster or a pocket book and the patient is usually very upfront about it, it s not really an issue.

 

[HotelCo]

I simply mean I approach it in a quick manner to improve the safety of me and the crew.

All I'm saying is that I would get it away, and get it secured. Of course you need to do it in a safe, non threatening calm manner, as to not make the situation worse.

The only people who are handling my firearm are myself, my family, or a LEO. I would never allow an ems provider to handle it.

 

[EMS Patient Care Advocate]

My .02
Gun control is sight picture, front sight focus, breathing, and trigger squeeze.
We went over how to handle a PATIENT with a firearm, knife, weapon- this includes police officers, they get hurt too- In ALL my EMT levels. I argue no one who is injured should be allowed to have posession of a firearm-including PD officers that are injured. A confused patient with a gun is never a good idea.
I have worked as LE, I currently have my CCW in several states, and responsibly carry a firearm everyday. It is my hope as a gun toting civilian that you wont run away from me just because I informed you there is a firearm present- I only can hope I am awake to work with you.
When I was In uniform as LE, and needed to transport a patient for rescue as a licensed paramedic, I secured my firearm in the lockable drug box on the ambulance. It was at the request of the rescue and police cheif. The argument of me having LE uniform, badge, and being on duty without my firearm is another concern all together.
If you dont know how to safely touch or secure a firearm- seek out the training. I didnt learn self defense and patient retraint without additional training. I didnt get firearm training without seeking additional education.
I recommend the next department meeting if not sooner this should be brought up, and a handling policy should be discussed. And if you do not know how to safely secure a firearm away from a patient you should find some training as there a lots more weapons then just firearms. Infact hand to hand combat generally scares me more.

 

[imadriver]

The main point is, if you are like me, you don't like the idea of someone with a loaded gun in the back of the ambulance with your partner.

One way or another, you need to have the patient disarm, in a calm respectful manner. Make sure the fire arm is secure, whether it's on your unit somewhere secure, in PD's hands, left in their house, or whatever the situation warrants. Use common sense to assess the threat. If there is a threat, let your dispatch know. Whatever is done, make sure you document it. And most importantly, make sure you, your partner, other responders, the patient, and bystanders are all safe and all leave alive.

 

[ffemt8978]

the main point is, if you are like me, you don't like the idea of someone with a loaded gun in the back of the ambulance with your partner.

One way or another, you need to have the patient disarm, in a calm respectful manner. Make sure the fire arm is secure, whether it's on your unit somewhere secure, in pd's hands, left in their house, or whatever the situation warrants. Use common sense to assess the situation. If there is a threat, let your dispatch know. Whatever is done, make sure you document it. And most importantly, make sure you, your partner, other responders, the patient, and bystanders are all safe and all leave alive.

ftfy

 

[Akulahawk]

ok, I'm going to try to boil this down to the simplest way possible.

You feel comfortable with firearms. do you feel comfortable with me handling a firearm? do you feel comfortable with an 18 year old who just stepped on the ambulance? how about the 21 year old who can't stop dropping the damn clipboard? going to be comfortable with him handling the firearm? what about the guy who has never touched a gun in his life?

It has nothing to do with an individual's training and experience... if you are going to make a policy, an SOP, or a protocol, it needs to be brought down to the lowest level; if everyone is trained in firearm safety, than it becomes a moot point. but if everyone is not trained equally, well, that is where you have a problem.
everyone at my service is trained in sheet transfers. OTJ is accepted, provided EVERYONE has the training. the only reason I mentioned EMT class was because in theory everyone receives the same training. everyone at my service has CEVO and EVOC training. it's all documented. not everyone has firearms training.
blah blah blahI never said that. I used the EDP as a separate example.
still absurd. I won't even dignify that absurdity with a response.wow, just wow. maybe it's just me and my area, but I would trust a member of law enforcement more than I would a civilian with a CCW. call it their training, requirements to stay proficient, education on law enforcement compared to a guy who carry a gun for personal reason. but hey, that's just me.
you didn't answer what YOU would do.

honest question: aside from filling out a form, do you need any training or education to get a CCW? any training, any safety courses, or is it just "fill out this form, give us the $25 filing fee, and here is your permit, go get your gun"?

and does your state have any rule about having loaded firearms in an ambulance? I know mine does.you think telling them you are leaving it on the curb for them to pick up will move it on the priority list?

and contrary to the belief of some, the overwhelming MAJORITY of calls for PD are of the report nature; that means they aren't imminent threats to life or property.

You might be surprised at how little firearms training the average LEO gets. Most are trained in pistol and shotgun use, during day and low-light conditions for all of about 40 hours. TOTAL. They may have to do requalification shoots once or twice a year. That can take all of maybe 1/2 to 1 hour each - from walking in to walking out. I've taken a basic LE firearms course - 24 hours. I've taken 2 different firearms courses (relatively recently) for another 24 hours. I've done firearms courses in college (yes, one of my colleges offered a LE focused firearms course or three) for about 300 classroom and range hours total. I go shoot a few times per year... which is about 3x more often than most LEO go for skill development.

For CCW training? Yes. It's required in CA. I also got a state and national background check that's run at the same level as a PD Firearms background check. That's REQUIRED.

I consider any firearm on scene to be dangerous. I don't know who these people are when I first walk up and come into their home. Any weapon on scene should be treated as a danger. I agree most people that are going to have a firearm directly on them are going to be great people and a completely legal form. However, expect the worse, and hope for the best.

And sorry about my post. I should definitely clarify. We Never leave a gun on scene unsecured. We remove it from the proximity of the patient, and let PD/HP handle it beyond that. Then Document that we do so.

And sorry about the "chip" thing. That's my southern comin' out.

A firearm in and of itself isn't dangerous. People are dangerous. Almost anything I have within arm's reach can be made into a deadly or dangerous weapon. Heck, if you're not paying attention, I can reach for your ball-point pen and kill you with it... and if I can do it, so can an "EDP"... think about that one for a minute.

And if PD is NOT on scene, leaving it someplace unattended is worse than taking it with you, secured in a cabinet because once you take possession of it, you OWN the following events because you're the proximate cause...

The only people who are handling my firearm are myself, my family, or a LEO. I would never allow an ems provider to handle it.

If I'm conscious, I'm right there with you. It's not that I don't trust me... it's that I don't trust you. Ask me to secure the firearm and I'll do it or I'll give you explicit, step-by-step instructions how to remove that firearm and holster as a unit. It's safer that way. I would rather keep it on my person as that way it's not out of my control.

And for those of you that advocate leaving a firearm unattended on scene, you have no control over that firearm once you leave, and you would be civilly and criminally liable because all the elements of negligence can be found against you for doing so, should there be any injury or death caused by someone that finds that firearm and uses it.

Duty of care: you found it, now you must dispo it to a responsible party
Breach of care: you left it on scene, you broke that duty.
Direct Cause: your action of leaving a firearm on scene means it's available for anyone to use, who then causes...
Harm - that unattended firearm gets used and harm comes to someone that otherwise wouldn't have.

Now that four points have been addressed: get out your checkbook... because you're going to be writing many zeroes to make the harmed person, "whole".

Oh, by that same act, pray that you're not found criminally negligent...

After all, while having PD on scene is a good thing for your safety/security, there might just be times that you don't discover the firearm until well into transport. Then what, pull over and wait? Your pulmonary edema patient who happens to be armed might come to additional harm should you choose that course of action. Think about that...

 

[mycrofft]

5=4

blah blah blah.-_-

 

[Akulahawk]

blah blah blah.-_-

And I'll break it down so a crusty, rusty, crotchety old EMT-A and RN can understand it. (The rest of us, especially me can only hope to become as wise...)

Leaving an unattended gun on scene is highly likely to result in you being found criminally or civilly negligent. That means loss of your license, may zeroes written against your personal wealth, and possibly spending quality time with Bubba or Junior in a place called Prison for a few years.

 

[mycrofft]

You know Bubba and Junior too? And Peewee, Sarge, Mousy...

Got it. Akula's back on track. But it is still "five is four" because these threads always degenerate into guys bragging and boasting and acting like gun virgins (and I hope that they can remain virginal in that department for the rest of their lives).

 

[Akulahawk]

Got it. Akula's back on track. But it is still "five is four" because these threads always degenerate into guys bragging and boasting and acting like gun virgins (and I hope that they can remain virginal in that department for the rest of their lives).

Oh good... we're not talking about those other virgins... :rofl:

now back to our regularly scheduled program. h34r:

 

[Akulahawk]

In a big way, I echo mycrofft's sentiment though. I own and carry firearms quite often, and where prudent to do so. I hope that I remain a firearms virgin in that I hope I never have to clear leather in response to an actual threat. That means something has gone horribly wrong and someone is about to get badly hurt (and it could also be ME!!)...

 

[Jon]

Waiting for my Grendel upper to arrive before I go and test that and my new G20.

Grendel? My brother is looking at 300 AAC. For his planned NFA Registered Receiver.

 

[bstone]

I'm a Ruger fan, myself.

 

[systemet]

A firearm in and of itself isn't dangerous. People are dangerous. Almost anything I have within arm's reach can be made into a deadly or dangerous weapon. Heck, if you're not paying attention, I can reach for your ball-point pen and kill you with it... and if I can do it, so can an "EDP"... think about that one for a minute.

The rest of this post is really well argued. But it's clear that a person armed with a firearm is more dangerous than a person armed with a ballpoint pen. Just because both could conceivably be used to inflict lethal injury doesn't mean that it's as easy to do so with both weapons, or over the same range.

 

[adamjh3]

The rest of this post is really well argued. But it's clear that a person armed with a firearm is more dangerous than a person armed with a ballpoint pen. Just because both could conceivably be used to inflict lethal injury doesn't mean that it's as easy to do so with both weapons, or over the same range.

So a person with a legally owned firearm who prays every day that he doesn't have to use it I more dangerous than a man attacking you with a ballpoint pen? Come on

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[Akulahawk]

So a person with a legally owned firearm who prays every day that he doesn't have to use it I more dangerous than a man attacking you with a ballpoint pen? Come on

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And that's my point. The person is dangerous, not the implement they use to attempt to kill you with.

 

[imadriver]

Alright, that solves it. No more ballpoint pens for my patients. They must sign with a bloody finger print.

 

[Akulahawk]

Alright, that solves it. No more ballpoint pens for my patients. They must sign with a bloody finger print.

That's either sarcasm or it's worthy of: