Taking a wrong turn

[Chrissy88]

Hi everyone,

Not sure if this is the right section of the forum to post this question or if this is a silly question...

If get a call and you're driving the ambulance to the location, but you accidentally took a wrong turn and it took you some time to get back on track, but with that time lost, the patient ended up dying....what type of legal reprecussions would there be, if any?

 

[46Young]

I've heard of families suing the agency for extended response times (accidental) and poor pt outcome, but I don't know what the reults were. I haven't heard of any repercussions from these suits myself. If it takes you a long time to show responding after receiving the call, that could/has been punishable.

You do need to know your first due, though. At least the general direction you're headed. If you're driving, your partner should have a map and therefore be largely responsible for keeping on track. Use GPS with extreme caution, as the route if gives may not be the quickest, by far. Know your local traffic patterns with respect to time of day, as well.

 

[PapaBear434]

I've gotten lost a couple times before, but only once did it cause us to be so far off that it could have caused harm.

My partner once punched in the address into the GPS as "Independence Blvd." In reality, it was "S. Independence Blvd." Big difference, being on either side of the city.

We got all the way out there before I realized that there was no Doctor's office of that name out there. The call was actually a breathing difficulty call, a woman having a very severe asthma attack. A paramedic was dispatched (both of us in the truck were basics at the time) at the same time as us and got there pretty quick, but he was just in an interceptor vehicle (the same as the police drive, only EMS) and obviously couldn't transport. In addition, he was running out of albuterol and needed the drug box on our truck.

When we realized our mistake, I immediately picked up the radio and told dispatch our mistake, and to please dispatch a fire engine to the scene (paramedic trucks have drug boxes) and a closer EMS unit if at all possible. As there were no EMS units available, they sent a fire unit and we just had to get there as soon as possible.

We did get a bit of a chew session from our Chief for not using our convoluted mapbook, even though it was human error that caused the mistake. My partner could have done it just as easily by looking up the address of 5555 Independence Blvd. instead of 5555 S. Independence Blvd in the mapbook too. But they also commended us for calling it in right away, admitting the error and trying to fix it, so it was a bit of a wash.

If you make the mistake, call and try to make sure nothing bad happens. If you can prove that it was an honest mistake you tried your best to make sure that no harm came from it, it would go a long way helping your case.

The above basically taught me, however, was always check the address on the computer yourself. Your partner, even a long time partner, can make mistakes too. Having someone double check the info is ALWAYS a good idea.

 

[Pudge40]

I've heard of families suing the agency for extended response times (accidental) and poor pt outcome, but I don't know what the reults were. I haven't heard of any repercussions from these suits myself. If it takes you a long time to show responding after receiving the call, that could/has been punishable.

You do need to know your first due, though. At least the general direction you're headed. If you're driving, your partner should have a map and therefore be largely responsible for keeping on track. Use GPS with extreme caution, as the route if gives may not be the quickest, by far. Know your local traffic patterns with respect to time of day, as well.

Not totally true. I have seen GPS devices that you can chage from fastest route to shortest milage.

 

[46Young]

Not totally true. I have seen GPS devices that you can chage from fastest route to shortest milage.

Shortest mileage isn't necessarily the fastest route. Several factors come into play, such as speed limits, lights/stop signs, traffic, etc.

I've seen some models that actually have up to the minute traffic info, and use that to plot the true fastest route. These are typically high end models. The employer is likely going for the cheapest GPS model possible, if they'll supply them at all.

 

[MMiz]

If you've worked in EMS then it has happened to you. I once turned a 15 minute response time into a 45 minute response (emergency but no L/S), and have got lost in large apartment complexes/sub divisions on occasion. What I learned from both instances: the GPS is a great tool, but nothing is better than knowledge of your area.

The 45 minute response was due to me taking small roads instead of hopping on the 70 mph interstate. That was a stupid mistake.

 

[Dominion]

Got stuck by a train once, the facility is behind the tracks, only one public entrance into the building is by crossing the tracks. Wasn't an emergency response but I have heard of others getting stuck there on emergency responses before. Not a good location =/

 

[JPINFV]

Not totally true. I have seen GPS devices that you can chage from fastest route to shortest milage.

I've also seen systems that allow you to set them to an "emergency vehicle" setting that ignores things like one way streets.

 

[Hal9000]

It happens

I was once on an unresponsive call and my medic was having a hard time locating the address. We finally arrived in the area and went along the curving road...and there wasn't any number matching. Close, but not the same. We asked for confirmation and dispatch confirmed. The medic and I looked at the book again...and noticed that, at some point, a controlled access road had been placed through the area severing the road. We had to go all the way back, find another road to access, then take an offramp, head back a mile, and finally arrive. Added a ton of time, but there was a 50/50 chance of being on the right road even if we'd interpreted it correctly.

 

[46Young]

I've also seen systems that allow you to set them to an "emergency vehicle" setting that ignores things like one way streets.

That's beyond dangerous. Going against flow should only be used as a last resort. The one true way to make up time is getting out of the station as quickly as possible. Know at least the general direction that you're heading, and have your partner look up the directions quickly. With anything else regarding emergency driving, the risks may outweigh the benefits.

 

[medicdan]

This is one of the many reasons I have become resistant to using a GPS, at least in my primary response area. If I am working there, I better know the streets, or at least have a decent map, and a partner who can read it. I feel like if I were sent to "South Independence", and I saw an independence on the north and south sides of town, I would head south. Mapreading is such an important skill, but we are seeing less and less of it in new employees.

 

[JPINFV]

That's beyond dangerous. Going against flow should only be used as a last resort. The one true way to make up time is getting out of the station as quickly as possible. Know at least the general direction that you're heading, and have your partner look up the directions quickly. With anything else regarding emergency driving, the risks may outweigh the benefits.

I never said it was necessarily safe, how ever many of the things emergency vehicles are allowed to do during emergency operations is unsafe. Running red lights. Making left turns at intersections where left turns aren't allowed. So on and so forth.

 

[PapaBear434]

This is one of the many reasons I have become resistant to using a GPS, at least in my primary response area. If I am working there, I better know the streets, or at least have a decent map, and a partner who can read it. I feel like if I were sent to "South Independence", and I saw an independence on the north and south sides of town, I would head south. Mapreading is such an important skill, but we are seeing less and less of it in new employees.

Our mapbooks don't show the city as a whole. Each page shows a small square mile to three square mile, so you can get around subdivisions and such. But if you are on one side of town, and try to get to the OTHER side of town, it is more trouble than it's worth.

First, you find where you are. That's page E3. Then you travel west on that road, and you reach the end of the map. The edge of the page tells you to please go to page A5. The road you're on ends up and the upper right corner of that map. You go to R1, to see where the corner continues, and immediately have to hook over to D7. Finally, you get to the map page D13, where you finally have your destination located.

I also keep a normal city map on me, just to get to the general location in case the GPS's go down, but the official Department policy is "You will use the mapbook, and we do not support the use of GPS devices or supplemental maps." It's all CYA on their part.

When used properly, the GPS will get you to the general location every time. So long as you enter the address right, it will get you within a mile or so. Then, if you can't find it, the map book is great. As long as you are within the grid, it is incredibly helpful to get around all the little suburb areas.

Yes, it's great to say "know your area." But my area is so complex and webbed with an incredible amount of tiny side roads and such, it's next to impossible to memorize them all. And if you're knew to the area, you need something to help. Map reading is an essential skill, but a GPS is a great shortcut.

 

[Seaglass]

My area has a few areas that are really bad for navigation. Our GPS doesn't get updated nearly often enough, and certain roads and cut-throughs don't appear in the mapbook. So yeah, we've gotten lost. My crew recently had a memorable call involving unmarked dirt roads, private property, and a really well-hidden ford across a creek.

We do a lot of things to try to prevent it, like putting notes in the mapbooks and posting notices about wrong plates. We even try to figure out who knows what areas best, if there's a crew where more than one person can drive or navigate. But sometimes we just strike out, especially if we're running mutual aid.

 

[Achromatic]

Not totally true. I have seen GPS devices that you can chage from fastest route to shortest milage.

Sure. Now, go to your GPS and plot a course from an address in say the SW corner of a blocked area to the NE.

Shortest milage across a diagonal, the long edge of a triangle? Why, the hypotenuse, of course.

How do you drive the hypotenuse of a blocked street layout?

"At next cross street, turn left. At next cross street turn right. At next cross street, turn left. At next cross street turn right. At next cross street, turn left. At next cross street turn right."

I'm just glad that my latest model Tomtom has finally done what I thought of years ago, that ETA should be based on rolling averages of 'current speed as a percentage of speed limit for road class'... was "fun" watching it tell my ETA for 10 miles up I-405 in Washington state was 10 minutes (try an hour plus).

"If speed limit for current road is 60mph, and current speed is 10mph, calculate ETA based on 16% of speed limit", roll that over the last five or whatever minutes, so as traffic clears, ETA will improve (and vice versa if it gets worse again).

 

[lightsandsirens5]

I've also seen systems that allow you to set them to an "emergency vehicle" setting that ignores things like one way streets.

What the.......? Who is the maroon who came up with that brilliant idea? Must be someone who hates EMS and wants us all dead!

 

[Akulahawk]

Here's an example of knowing your location... Santa Clara County uses (or can use) Thomas Guide Grids... At one time, I knew the area well enough by page, and grid, that if that's all I got to start with, I could get into the correct general area... without having to refer to the map. Once we "got" into the area that was covered by the page itself, my partner could then navigate us to the specific area, then street, and then we'd arrive at the location itself... all in pretty short order. Since I (still) know where all the hospitals are in that County, if I were to go back there, I'd make a note of larger streets in the area... and since I know where those go... I can quickly find my way to any hospital in the County without having to use a map.

Drop me in an unfamiliar area... and I'm going to be lost until I can get myself oriented to the map vs. real world. Over time, my knowledge of the area gets better and better.

GPS is good... but knowing the area is MUCH better.

 

[PapaBear434]

What the.......? Who is the maroon who came up with that brilliant idea? Must be someone who hates EMS and wants us all dead!

The one's I've seen with "Emergency Vehicle" settings don't take you down one ways. They do, however, plan on U-Turns. When in normal mode, the thing will sometimes route you through a neighborhood or down a corner road to get you to a break in the median, so you can make a legal left turn vs. a U-Turn to get to the driveway on the other side of a median.

When in Emergency Mode, it just takes you down the main road and warns you of U-Turn.

It also takes into account that you'll be going through red lights (or changing them with an OptiCom) and will plan for that, routing you down streets it normally wouldn't under the "fastest time" option because it's accounting for the amount of lights and speed limits.

As I said, I have never seen one suggest a one way street, and there are a LOT of those down this way.

 

[Shishkabob]

It wasn't really an emergency response, but my partner and I were taking a dehydrated DKA to the hospital.

I somehow heard "Parkland" which was 20 minutes away, when instead I should have gone to Baylor, which was literally 1 mile down the road. I got on the highway and my partner was like "Why we on the highway"

"That's how we get to Parkland"

"Why we going to Parkland?"




Was funny AFTER the fact.

 

[medicdan]

I'll add another required resource, which I didnt mention at first, because I thought they always go hand-in-hand. A reliable street guide. Knowing where each street starts/ends, and an idea of numbers is an invaluable resource if used correctly.