Paramedic Practitioner? Masters degree and future of EMS

Summit

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Start with associates. Get the nation standardized.Do that first. go from there.
 

DPM

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The difference in time commitment between an associates degree and a well regarded paramedic program isn't great. Now that all Paramedic programs have to be accredited with higher education institutions, it shouldn't be hard. Add the A&P, physiology, chemistry etc that we really should be getting any and you're golden.

Personally, I think that higher education is always a good thing. We need degrees, especially for if / when we eventually move on from working in the field. A degree that is useful and relevant to our field shouldn't be too much to ask for. Plus, with advanced education and training we could expand the paramedic scope of practice and be better providers.
 
OP
MedicSansBrains

MedicSansBrains

If it's the PC police then I'm not home.. got it?
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I agree and thought that a scope of practice expansion was the natural evolution of things with Community Paramedicine.

Filling in those gaps in our communities and also reducing wasted resources for a lot of systems and ERs without a good outcome for the patient.

In my mind this means a scope increase and having a team of specialized providers out there following up, Dx, treating, and prescribing in the field all while getting reimbursed.

If you don't think this is the evolution of things please explain. If you do what is the solution? Another cert like CCP or hiring PA's and NP's in systems.
 
OP
MedicSansBrains

MedicSansBrains

If it's the PC police then I'm not home.. got it?
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Start with associates. Get the nation standardized.Do that first. go from there.
It's a little "no child left behind" isn't it?
 

cprted

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It's a little "no child left behind" isn't it?
No, not at all. Do you know what the "No Child Left Behind Act" entailed? Requiring a 2 year diploma from an accredited college for licensure as an EMT-P is really nothing like imposing standardized testing throughout the public education system and tying the availability of federal funds and the use of said funds to the results of those tests. Not even close to the same thing.
 
OP
MedicSansBrains

MedicSansBrains

If it's the PC police then I'm not home.. got it?
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No, not at all. Do you know what the "No Child Left Behind Act" entailed? Requiring a 2 year diploma from an accredited college for licensure as an EMT-P is really nothing like imposing standardized testing throughout the public education system and tying the availability of federal funds and the use of said funds to the results of those tests. Not even close to the same thing.
Yeah it is if you aren't so concerned with demonstrating your understanding of a failed educational policy. Sounds like an understanding of someone who was victimized by said policy.

Rather than focusing so much on the laggards and being so concerned with bringing them up to a minimum standard maybe we should also have a large focus on advancing the leaders and keeping forward progress. You can do both.
 

cprted

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Yeah it is if you aren't so concerned with demonstrating your understanding of a failed educational policy. Sounds like an understanding of someone who was victimized by said policy.

Rather than focusing so much on the laggards and being so concerned with bringing them up to a minimum standard maybe we should also have a large focus on advancing the leaders and keeping forward progress. You can do both.
Stunning.

A) I'm Canadian, so no, I wasn't victimized by the American public education system.
B) I have a bachelor's degree already and my second degree is 2/3 complete.

Make sure it's loaded before you go shooting it off.
 
OP
MedicSansBrains

MedicSansBrains

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Oh great a Canadian commenting on the effects of American educational policy. So much better.

I'm from Texas. I'm very aware whether or not it's loaded and how to shoot it.

Thanks for contributing to the conversation in such a profound way of how to further American paramedicine.
 
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cprted

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I didn't realize the coat of arms on my passport was also a functional block in my brain, preventing me from having any knowledge of things outside the borders of my own country ... the things you learn on the internet ...
 

Summit

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MedicSansBrains is living up to his screenname again... my suggestion was borne of the successful incremental strategy of nursing.
cprted is worth listening to. I'd be happy to take advice from Canada on what we should do with EMS because their system is one we could emulate.
 

DPM

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...cprted is worth listening to. I'd be happy to take advice from Canada on what we should do with EMS because their system is one we could emulate.
I believe the UK is moving towards a Bachelors for all paramedics, with a system in place allowing current non-degree medics to turn their current credentials into a degree. Australia offers a diploma (like an associates degree) and a bachelors, as does New Zealand and Canada. Why are we determined to accept only the bare minimum of education?

I'll get a lot of heat for this, but I've always wondered if the strongest opponents are so anti education because they're worried that they wouldn't be able to make the new standard. We can't dream of RSI and better wages if we're only willing to commit to 9 months of night school.
 
OP
MedicSansBrains

MedicSansBrains

If it's the PC police then I'm not home.. got it?
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@Summit I know where your suggestions were borne. Don't agree with it because it and sounds like you don't either based on your evidence. Masters and Doctoral programs existed way before ADN was a mandatory standard. It was actually all over the place. My great grandmother had her masters in nursing in the 50's.

@cprted still haven't contributed anything to the furthering of Paramedicine as a profession. Just wah wah about you being picked on.
 
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OP
MedicSansBrains

MedicSansBrains

If it's the PC police then I'm not home.. got it?
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I believe the UK is moving towards a Bachelors for all paramedics, with a system in place allowing current non-degree medics to turn their current credentials into a degree. Australia offers a diploma (like an associates degree) and a bachelors, as does New Zealand and Canada. Why are we determined to accept only the bare minimum of education?

I'll get a lot of heat for this, but I've always wondered if the strongest opponents are so anti education because they're worried that they wouldn't be able to make the new standard. We can't dream of RSI and better wages if we're only willing to commit to 9 months of night school.
thanks for contributing an opinion on subject
 

SandpitMedic

Crowd pleaser
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Well in Northern Ca and Nevada these RNs are making bank. (And there is a huge shortage of staff).

My reply is to @Tigger
Yeah it is variable though, even in the West.

(This thread got red hot real quick).
 

ExpatMedic0

MS, NRP
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Ok. So everyone agrees a "Paramedic Practitioner" is a stupid idea.

Also, everyone agrees getting an Associates Degree is a good idea.

What do y'all think about Bachelors? @ExpatMedic0 I see that you have one of those.
I think its a good idea for some, it depends on what your career and education goals are. I actually submitted a manuscript to JEMS which has been going through a review and editorial process for months now about this very topic. I am not sure if they will decide to publish it or not but I hope they do and I'll keep you up to date if they do. A couple points I made was regarding learning lessons from other allied health professions. One that I mentioned was certified athletic trainers who made bachelor's degree the minimum national standard for entry level practice. The other I touched on was respiratory therapist having an associate's degree as a minimum. The reality is, with the newer NREMT accreditation standards, most paramedics either get an AAS or are teetering on the edge of earning one and can complete an associate's degree in about 2 semesters, even completely online while working. The question many will ask is why?
If extrinsic motivation is the primary factor for the paramedic, convincing them to complete a degree may be unnecessary and a lackluster concept at best. However, in my opinion (speaking strictly andecotatly of course), I think we are seeing a large number of newer paramedics who are motivated at least in part, by Intrinsic motivational factors. That is what will make the degree a reality one day and that is what will push this vocational trade to a true profession in the United States in the future.
In terms of midlevel providers with masters degrees, I don't think its a bad idea and it could happen one day in the U.S. but not until we expand the traditional paramedic education and role of a paramedic a bit further. We also need to acquire more EMS providers with higher education in research and policy making activities. I think the majority of paramedics getting masters degrees in the majority of countries are getting them as non-clinical degrees, like the one I am working on, or a better example would be an MPH
 
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Carlos Danger

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Oh great a Canadian commenting on the effects of American educational policy. So much better.

I'm from Texas. I'm very aware whether or not it's loaded and how to shoot it.

Thanks for contributing to the conversation in such a profound way of how to further American paramedicine. Troll somewhere else tool.
You are quite misdirected here, sir.

First, cprted has been posting and contributing here since well before you came along. He is well educated and always contributes positively. If you choose to dismiss his input just because he's Canadian, it will be your loss.

Second, you should probably recognize that the EMS system found in parts of Canada is considered a model by many who want to see educational standards for American paramedics dramatically increased. So again, dismissing someone who is from that system and is willing to give input here is probably not smart.

Thirdly, the point that cprted and Summit are making - that you inexplicably seem to take offense to - is actually very reasonable. The harsh (and rather obvious) reality is that we simply are not going to move directly from a system that doesn't even require an associate's degree for entry and where we can't bill for medical services, to one that requires a master's level education and professional licensure and allows us to write scripts and do dispositions on scene. Too little standardization still exists, too little professional infrastructure, and too much institutional resistance to significant increases in educational requirements. We have a lot of ducks to get lined up before we can even think about this in a serious way, and starting to improve standardization by getting everyone to the AS level is a really good place to start. So, if you just want to have theoretical discussions on how cool it would be to have a PA/NP - level "paramedic practitioner", fine - mentally masturbate about that all day long. But if you really want to see big changes, then I suggest you instead have a conversation about realistic things that we can support and promote now, that will at least move the profession in the general direction of being able to produce practitioners.

Lastly, don't get offended so easily. Someone disagreeing with you is not "attacking" you.
 

triemal04

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Yeah, and how can we ever be seen as professionals when we act like this?
Yes, yes, and yes some more.

Someone else made the comment that maybe one of the reasons that some people are against increasing the educational requirements is because they know they wouldn't be able to hack it. I'd say this thread, as always with this topic, is a prime example of that, as well as the other big reasons: people are lazy, only want to be the "cool guys" and don't understand the American medical system.

Honestly, it's times like this that I am very glad that there is NOT a real nationally standardized paramedic level and practice; I don't want to have to step backwards to fit in.
 

johnrsemt

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Biggest problem is cost: No service that I know about pays extra if a paramedic has a degree.
When I went through Paramedic school in 2003-2004 it was about $6,000 (that my FD that I was PT at paid for) same class with an A.S. Degree (students attended same classes I did for the paramedic part) was $11,000. If we don't get an award at the end it is hard to push for everyone to pay more for it.

In Canada, and Australia and NZ ( I have heard this anyway, no personal experience) they have different levels of EMS, and have degree requirements for the different levels, but they get paid alot more for each level/degree; that way it is worth taking the extra classes.

I am working on my general Ed to get my AS degree, but just as something to do cause I am bored on my 5 days off each week. Not because it is a requirement or that I am learning anything extra that will help me be a better paramedic. Knowing all of the bones in the body doesn't help me out any: I can't go to the ED with a patient and tell the doctor which bone in their hand or foot they broke without a x-ray.
 

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