We had a car accident call. a small fire dept responded along with us "ambulance." Long story short i got right in there with the fire dept to get this guy back bored c collar ect. and on stretcher. Today 24 hours later this firefighter girl has been sending me hateful text messages. After I called and asked what the address was for my report last night. They go something like this That was my patient! when the fire dept tell you to move you move we had it. Thats why you never got on because you cant fallow orders. you worthless peace of **** loser. Okay and I found out today a complaint was filed against me from the fire dept for getting in there. Guy can I lose my EMT license or get fired what about the text messages!
Fighting over a patient? First responder vs EMT
- Thread starter fishyfish
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I don't really understand your question at all...Were you dispatched on the call, what was your role, and what is someone accusing you of doing?
Not trying to get on your case at all, but a little cleaning up of grammar, punctuation, and syntax would really help clear up the legibility of your post.
Not trying to get on your case at all, but a little cleaning up of grammar, punctuation, and syntax would really help clear up the legibility of your post.
LACoGurneyjockey
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What is the certification level and roll of Fire, EMS/ambulance, and any other medical responders? Volunteer/paid? Private/County? Who has patient care authority? Who has scene control? Have you had issues before with this crew (or this girl sending you "hateful messages")? Did you interfere with their efforts? More information is going to get you a better response here.
And not to be that guy, but I can't help it. Proper spelling and grammar makes me much more willing to provide input...
To answer your immediate question as best I can: No, there is almost no chance of another agency's complaint impacting your EMT certification. Could your company discipline/fire you, sure, but probably not. Could the county put you on probation, yep, but they probably won't. A single complaint, particularly if it's what you started to describe, shouldn't have too much of an impact on your employment, and certainly not on your cert.
And not to be that guy, but I can't help it. Proper spelling and grammar makes me much more willing to provide input...
To answer your immediate question as best I can: No, there is almost no chance of another agency's complaint impacting your EMT certification. Could your company discipline/fire you, sure, but probably not. Could the county put you on probation, yep, but they probably won't. A single complaint, particularly if it's what you started to describe, shouldn't have too much of an impact on your employment, and certainly not on your cert.
Sorry guys emotional writing. I was dispatched from a MVA with injury's. Fire and me and my partner rolled up on scene same time. Fire swarmed the pt. I grabbed a back bored and c collar. Fire took it and I had to ask a fire responded to move so I could see what we had and as the fire paramedic what he had found. The first responders didn't like that and got the fire dept to file a complaint. In the meantime I received insulting text messages from the first responder I asked to move. saying I was in the way of the fire dept and it was her patient.
DesertMedic66
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We have no idea how your area operates. Is the fire department in charge of the accident scene? What is their training level (EMR, BLS, ALS). What is your company policy?
You are not likely to get your certificate pulled. We have no idea how your company operates as far as complaints go so we can't really say what will happen. If the text messages are really bugging you and you want to do something about it then follow your chain of command.
You are not likely to get your certificate pulled. We have no idea how your company operates as far as complaints go so we can't really say what will happen. If the text messages are really bugging you and you want to do something about it then follow your chain of command.
Assuming your service normally runs the 911 calls for the area and that the Fire Department in question does not have ambulances and does not transport, it should be your patient, despite the fact that there is a Fire/Medic on scene. You are EMS.
Now, if they were going to transport, then yeah, toe stepping was had.
Now, if they were going to transport, then yeah, toe stepping was had.
DesertMedic66
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Depends on your area. For us Fire always has a least one medic on their engine and our ambulances always have at least one medic on them. The first crew on scene is in charge of patient care. So if fire is on scene first they will hand over patient care to us depending on how critical the patient is they may not hand over patient care and ride with the patient.
We have a mix on fire of responders emt EMT I's and Medics. The fire medic had head and i EMT took feet when bording kicking first responders out of the way. Fire does not have ambulances. we met on scene same exact time. it was just all there first responders swarmed before we even had a bored pulled out
LACoGurneyjockey
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Is fire BLS or did they have a medic? And in this instance were you partnered with a paramedic or EMT?
DesertMedic66
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I'm confused. How is the Fire department BLS if they have a mixed staff of EMR, EMT, AEMT, and medics?
Are EMRs in your area allowed/know how to backboard? If yes then what is the point in kicking them out of the way for a skill they are able to do?
The dept carrys BLS equipment they only have 3 ppl who are emt aemt and medic. I kicked the emrs out of the way because that's what my orders from my AEMT partner was to do. To help the fire medic and to get information on what we had. I couldnt tell you why my partner sent me in
DesertMedic66
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If your partner told you to kick them out of the way then that is going to be a major issue. Was it more of a "hey go find out what's going on?"
If you start kicking people out of the way on a call (assuming they are doing things correctly) all that is going to do is cause tension between crews and honestly it's not going to look good in the publics eye
LACoGurneyjockey
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They're first responders, swarming is what they do, it's not always a bad thing to have more hands at patient side sooner than later. Was there a reason you needed to be hands on with the patient, considering there was already a medic and more than enough man power available? I run with BLS fire and if it's in their scope and they're not being party poopers that day, I'm more than happy to let them do as much as they want to. He had the head, you had the feet, more than 2 people are needed for effective c-spine. You say you kicked them out of the way. If someone tried to kick me out of the way, I'd be pissed too, particularly a provider of the same or lesser level.
So the Fire dept has personnel certified at a paramedic level who only carry BLS gear and can only practice at a BLS level? Then unfortunately they are EMTs until otherwise equipped. It's not a bad thing that you stepped in and got hands on with your patient, but the way you "kicked them out of the way" is most likely where this issue stemmed from. Please, thank you, you sir are a stellar firefighter, goes a long way towards supporting fragile egos. Why wasn't your AEMT partner getting hands on if he wanted more info so badly? Multiple patients?
Sorry, this has been scattered, but if there's one thing I'm trying to say it's that the way you approach the situation, and the way you interact with other agencies will go a long way towards continuity and quality of patient care.
This. What exactly did your partner ask you to do? If I have an issue with my partner on scene, he's the purramedic and I'll go with it in the moment. But you better believe as soon as we clear I'll be pushing to figure out what his thought process was and if there was something else he wanted to happen that didn't.
MrJones
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I'm still trying to reconcile your statement that you wanted to "as[k] the fire paramedic what he had found" with your statement that "the fire dept is a bls level". 
Sorry, but inconsistencies such as that tend to cost you points on the credibility scale.
Sorry, but inconsistencies such as that tend to cost you points on the credibility scale.
LACoGurneyjockey
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If I understand you, he is certified at a paramedic level, working for a fire dept authorized to practice at a BLS level. He has paramedic knowledge and can do a higher level assessment, but has no ALS gear. We have a few in Kern county who went to medic school, show up on scene and try to run the show without any ALS gear. It's ok, I'll just wait here and you let me know when you'd like us to start an IV, m'kay?
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Why not just stand back and let them board the patient? I second asking what exactly your partner asked you to do...not trying to be an *** but you can very easily receive a report without stepping on toes and kicking people outta the way. As a medic I'd have an issue with my partner doing this unless there was something being done horribly wrong or dangerously. I'd never "order" my partner to kick someone out of the way. I don't order anyone to do anything, I ask with please and thank you. Now if that doesn't work after a few tries or things aren't being done that I'm asking for I start to get firmer and giving "orders".
Who is the medical authority? You or them? If you'r the transporting provider and you have the medical authority the MFR was way out of line saying it's "their" patient. It's not about us, it's about the patients.
I'd save those text messages and do not engage them any further. Be the bigger man and don't make a bad situation any worse. I'm a total hot head but I also give a lot of respect on scene and because of it fire bends over backwards for me. Also, did you report these texts and what they said to you on the phone to your supervisor? If things truly are as bad as they sound it's something that needs to be dealt with above the street level.
Tact goes a long way in this job with co-responders. The more enemies you make the more difficult your job is going to be as well as the more problems you're going to run into.
Sounds like things could've been done better on both sides of the coin.
Who is the medical authority? You or them? If you'r the transporting provider and you have the medical authority the MFR was way out of line saying it's "their" patient. It's not about us, it's about the patients.
I'd save those text messages and do not engage them any further. Be the bigger man and don't make a bad situation any worse. I'm a total hot head but I also give a lot of respect on scene and because of it fire bends over backwards for me. Also, did you report these texts and what they said to you on the phone to your supervisor? If things truly are as bad as they sound it's something that needs to be dealt with above the street level.
Tact goes a long way in this job with co-responders. The more enemies you make the more difficult your job is going to be as well as the more problems you're going to run into.
Sounds like things could've been done better on both sides of the coin.
As stated if you are the people that will be transporting, the pt is yours (did you transport?). What you did wrong was jump in there and kick people out because you or your partner were on some type of ego trip. When me and the medic roll up on a cardiac arrest, we don't jump in kicking people off the pt who are doing CPR unless they are doing it not to standard which is very rare. If they want to do the hard work then be my guest. I will sit at the feet and draw up meds and set up the ZOLL, the medic will administer the meds. What I am trying to say is, unless you see someone doing something that will endanger someone then there is no point to just jumping in to touch the pt. Sounds like they are all at least BLS certified, let them do the work and try to lead the heard until the PT is on the box ready to be transported. As Rob said, there shouldn't be "orders" of that nature, especially from and AEMT. If it was a Captain or Commander? Then that may be different.
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