What I Hate the most about EMS

[Maya]

Okay. RidRyder -- I was really trying not to take the bait, but this kind-of bothers me. You have different political beliefs -- I can respect that, although I don't agree with you. It's unlikely that we'll be able to change one another's minds, although I am mystified as to how anyone could possibly still be Republican after what has just happened in the economy -- having heard such things as Alan Greenspan, himself, admitting that the ideology of unbridled free-market economics he blindly followed for the last 40 years was based on a "fundamental misunderstanding of how the world works."

Not to mention Cheney -- Halliburton. And.. Bush?! Thanks, but I'll take my chances with Obama.

That said, I do respect your medical background. I don't agree with you about the healthcare system. It is fundamentally flawed and it is not sustainable. We cannot afford to NOT fix it. Whether or not anyone agrees with the plan, there has to be a plan. If it doesn't work perfectly, we'll have to keep trying, but there simply is no way we can keep printing money.. and more money... and more money. And keep paying for Medicare/ Medicaid and Social Security. The underlying problem itself has to be fixed.

There is a very big divide between rich and poor. I don't believe in hand-outs, but you seem to be pretty insensitive to the fact that poverty is an issue that can't be addressed by simply ignoring it and saying that if someone's born into poverty, gets no education, lives in filth and infestation, hungry.. surrounded by drugs, gangs, and violence, has few choices for earning an honest and survivable income, because they don't have that very basic education and few chances to escape from poverty -- too bad. That's their fault, it's not my problem.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you have a real understanding of what, exactly, is poverty and despair. Try talking to a kid who doesn't think they'll live past 20 years old. How can that possibly not break your heart. It sucks, that is the way it is. It does seem like there's nothing you can do to change things, but I don't personally believe that's an excuse to do nothing. Even if you think that what you're doing is futile and you think that you'll fail, how can you accept doing nothing as an alternative?

It is ugly and it's inconvenient, but it's still there even if you turn your back to it. I'm not trying to be condescending saying that you've never seen things like that. In EMS, I'm sure you have. But I can't say that I can really sympathize with Trickle-Down Economics, giving money and tax-breaks to the wealthiest 1%, when everyone else is starving. And the statistics do not lie. The divide between rich and poor has only gotten bigger and bigger.

Okay, dammit. I wasn't going to go back onto the politics. I can't help myself!

But what is bothering me -- that I don't understand about what you're saying -- what is your solution to the EMS problem? Are you saying that there's nothing to be done? I don't really understand that attitude. How can you see a problem that affects you directly and just accept it? Why is this even a topic if you don't even think there's a solution worth considering or discussing? Even a small possibility of a minor concession would be something.

 

[daedalus]

Maya, many here have to show us the cold, hard truth so that the rest of us may learn. Each and every time one EMT or Paramedic sees the light, we gain a small victory. Every time education is discovered by a new EMT as the key to our future as a profession, we gain a small victory. Once a good number of us recognize education as our saving grace, we can continue on to better pay, more career options, etc.

What can you do to help? Do not become one of the mindless sheep. Take some classes at a community college. Treat your patients well. Follow evidence based practices and inform your employer and system medical director of the latest research on oxygen, c-spine, and what have you. They will be impressed. Become a paramedic and do not settle for mediocracy in your knowledge base or incompetence in your peers. Advocate for your profession by writing letters to those who hold political office. Teach your younger partners.

 

[Shishkabob]

although I am mystified as to how anyone could possibly still be Republican after what has just happened in the economy

1) Political affiliation doesn't just have to do with economic views. Also has to do with gov't views, personal views, etc etc.

2) You DO (or atleast should) know that the economy lags by quite a few years on upswings, correct?

3) Last I checked, democrats spent more money on this recent recession then Republicans did, and to no avail.



This recession isn't a red vs blue thing, so don't try to make it one.


(PS, I may live in Texas, but was raised in very liberal Michigan, so don't think I'm a republican just because I'm in Texas)

 

[Maya]

You guys do understand why the Stock Market crashed, right? Have you been reading about the Credit Crisis, mortgage-backed securities, the Housing Bubble... This all happened because there was NO oversight by the SEC. The Uptick-Rule, which was instated by FDR after the Great Depression -- to make sure that a Stock Market Crash on the scale of the Wallstreet Crash of 1929 NEVER happened again. The Uptick-Rule was repealed in 2007, allowing Hedge Funds to obliterate the market with aggressive short-selling. Ben Bernanke, Henry Paulson, Christopher Cox -- all of these guys in charge went on the stand shame-faced and ADMITTED that they were wrong! It's not a simple Red vs. Blue issue. Alan Greenspan, the poster-boy for unbridled free-market Capitalism, took responsibility for the crash! He admitted that what he believed to be true for the last 40 years -- based on the economics of Milton Friedman -- was wrong. Fundamentally flawed. They have now advocated for a reinstatement of the Uptick-Rule. The views that are opposite to Milton Friedman's -- those of John Maynard Keynes.

Not to mention all this other crap you see in the news -- Madoff, Stanford... almost every day there's another scam-artist pulling yet another an *unbelievable* scam. How did Madoff get away with this? Because there was NO OVERSIGHT by the SEC.

What we're seeing now is a repeat of history. You're right in that I'm biased towards to Blue side because of personal beliefs, but the basis of what I believe is the fundamental underlying economics.

 

[Maya]

Daedalus, thank you for the excellent advice, which I will definitely follow! You can be sure that I will write letters! But, is there an affiliation of EMS workers trying to achieve this same goal, together? It doesn't have to even be a 'Union,' as such, but it seems like we would achieve more by acting as some kind of organized group.

As I understand it, the way it more or less works is that the person in charge of the organization writes a standardized letter. It is sent to all members of the organization via email. You sign your name at the bottom of the document and it is automatically forwarded on to your Senator and will eventually move on to the House of Representatives when enough letters have been received. The leaders of the organization hold meetings to educate people and continue to advocate for their cause in Congress and in the Senate... But none of that actually happens if the Senate doesn't receive enough letters -- it has to be *organized* so that your Senator is forced to address the issue.

That isn't very likely to happen if it is left to individual people to write their own letters, find the information on where to send the letter, actually send the letter. And keep going through this whole process over and over again. Very few people will actually bother to send letters, unless it is organized for them and made very simple for them to follow simple steps. People are generally complacent about taking action on things that they may even feel very passionate about. It's just human nature.

I know that I'm ranting and raving, but the reason I think that it's so important is that I think that many people don't realize how much of an impact every letter makes. They assume it's just one letter and it doesn't make a difference whether they send it or not... So why bother if nothing's going to happen anyway?

But, for every letter that is sent to Congress, that letter is weighed as a constituent of 200 votes -- because they know that for every ONE person who feels strongly enough to write to their Senator, another TWO HUNDRED people feel the same way, but are too complacent to send letters themselves. No kidding, you think people are lazy about voting. We're pretty lazy overall, however vital it may be to our own health and wellbeing.

http://www.mindpeacecincinnati.org/advocacy.shtml

I really do think that we can do something -- however small that something might even turn out to be. But, I don't think that *anything* can happen if we are not organized.

 

[Maya]

By the way, I hope nobody takes anything I say personally. I'm pretty passionate about my views, and I think that everyone should be -- whether or not they agree with my opinions. As long as you have opinions and are not complacent, and you're willing to fight for your beliefs, I consider you to be a valuable and active member of society.

Sorry, I shouldn't even be bringing politics into this discussion. Maybe we can work together for a common cause, no matter what politics we happen to follow.

Here's another good link for how to address letters:

http://www.ieeeusa.org/policy/guide/letters.html

 

[Ridryder911]

I never discourage anyone to be politically active, in fact most here know I am one of the few that actually hits the legislatures and State Senators every year. Enough, most of my representatives know my name and definitely are aware of my agenda... I also know that unless you have a representation of at least 30-40% of your workforce legislatures and other politicians will generally ignore your pleas. Letters and faxes are great, but truthfully are usually ignored as they get flooded with them daily.

We have been working hard at all levels for a change within EMS. Yes, Atropine is correct in one aspect that Fire Service has definitely made some compensation. Unfortunately, many fire services have "hood winked" and sucked monies into grants and programs using the "what if" unrealistically. The reason such pay can be given is because programs can be funded & operated where purchases and revenue used to be spent on salaries; but alas all good things will have to come to an end. As many are now recognizing that "Hero" syndrome is a myth and when the general public is unemployed tax revenue dies. When tax revenue dies, cuts and furloughs are made. The general public will feel if a firefighter makes a ton of cash, then they are over paid.

One thing fire service does have is a strong PAC and they do use the "bleeding heart" theory, something we could learn off them. Unfortunate that they do not have to justify their failures. I do agree the majority of EMT's are definitely lazy within the profession. They whine and moan about the pay but to take action is a whole different story. Even nursing has a strong PAC and organization that makes a difference, at least their main focus is on patient care, patient safety and protecting those within their profession.

How many here are even involved with Advocates for EMS (http://www.advocatesforems.org/ )or even involved in NAEMT, State EMS Associations? All have representatives fighting for "our" piece of the pie. Again, as I have said before if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

R/r 911

 

[Melclin]

Something I will never understand about Americans is their aversion to reasonable social justice and equity of health care. Anytime the idea of socialized medicine, higher taxes, welfare or state run organisations comes up, out come the naysayers. "It can't work", "It will destroy the economy", "it will break down capitolism", "we won't be able to chose our doctors", "why should I pay for everyone else", "I already pay to much tax", wah wah wah. (Don't anybody get on my back about racism, I'm not being racist, I'm critiquing American society).

All of this completely ignoring the fact that IN EVERY OTHER DEVELOPED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, IT DOES WORK, IT HAS WORKED FOR A LONG TIME, AND EVERYONE CLEARLY BENEFITS FROM THE OBVIOUSLY BETTER SYSTEM.

This may seem off topic, but I don't think it is. The problems you have with EMS seem endemic in many other areas of American society and I feel that it has something to do with a fundamentally selfish, ignorant and mindlessly competitive ethos.

An example of how a civilized system works:

- I went to a satisfactory state school, received a good education for free, went to a catholic private school (We were by no means wealthy, but catholic private schools are not beyond the means of alot of people because most people live in a comfortable middle class). I suffered a number of health conditions, for which the FREE public system was able to treat me for (and in two cases save my life), that we would not have been able to afford otherwise. The same is true of most of my family at one point or another.

-I never worried much about stabbings, gun violence, gangs etc, because relative to America, it doesn't exist - poverty is not so wide spread or serious that people need to adopt that way of life, and guns ownership is strictly controlled (the government and the King of England has yet to take advantage of it and crush my human rights).

-I attended the the university of my choice through academic achievement, not through money, decided against my BSci degree and dropped out. It didn't cripple me financially, because the government pays for the education (then you pay them back, with no interest, when you can). I finally decided I would go for my original first choice: A Paramedic Bachelors Degree (FYI- there is no other form of Paramedic education now available, and we don't have EMTs). It's a highly competitive course to get into, taught at the fourth best university in Australia. There were approx 700 applicants and 80 places, I got in because I did well academically at school and I wrote a good essay on why I will make a good medic, not because I watched ER and wrote a cheque.

-When I graduate, I will be paid around $10,000 a year above the average wage (not the minimum wage) and that will raise significantly more after I finish my internship. WHY? Because the role that EMS fulfills in our society is respected and acknowledged by everyone as being a self evidently important third service (as it is in Britain, France, Germany etc). I will work for a state wide, state run service, get paid more than any equivalent American could ever hope too (as do most Australians, in similarly important but non-commercial roles), even after the +30% of my wage goes to taxes. I will enjoy the benefits of those taxes: free health care, good public education, excellent professional Police, Fire and EMS departments, welfare for the poor and disadvantaged, all of which I'm happy and proud to contribute too because contributing to the community makes mine and everyone else's lives better.


It is the same in every other developed nation. We are happy to contribute to the common wealth of society because we are part of that society and improving it makes our own lives better. It's not communism, its just how an enlightened, well educated, wealthy country improves the lives of it citizens.

When you talk about the resistance you face to professionalism in EMS, to the rampant commercialism at the expense of safety, the lack of important regulation of education and accreditation, the million private providers, which as I said could be a description of many American fields, not just EMS, it makes me think that it is indicative of a deeper underlying problem in your society. It's not to say that it never happens here, but here, and in other developed nations, it faces widespread disapproval as being a self evidently bad thing and for the most part, is even legislated against. In America, its seems to be an accepted norm, if not encouraged as a shinning example of pure capitalism.

I have no idea how you could fix your problems, of if it's even possible, but I admire people like Rid and Vent who are trying.

 

[Shishkabob]

Melcin, quite a few things you and other people that critique America tend to ignore;

Australia has a population of 28,000,000.
America? 300,000,000+.

You have less than 10% of our population. Don't you think that would make it slightly easier to pay for everyones healthcare?

I don't know if you trust Wikipedia. I tend not to, but they put everything in one little area, so I'll quote it.

U.S. cancer survival rates are the highest in the world.

The U.S. health care system far outspends any other nation's, measured in both per capita spending and percentage of GDP.

In 2004, the nonindustrial sector spent three times as much as Europe per capita on biomedical research.

Sorry, but capitalism drives innovation, there is no argument to that. America is at the forefront of most medical innovations in the past, present, and foreseeable future.

Something I will never understand about Americans is their aversion to reasonable social justice and equity of health care. Anytime the idea of socialized medicine, higher taxes, welfare or state run organisations comes up, out come the naysayers.

You're mistaking hating an idea for having no compassion.

Americans who hate helping people are few and far between. I hope you realize that America contributes more to humanitarian efforts around the world then ANY OTHER COUNTRY. So don't call us selfish. You're dead wrong.


What most Americans DO believe is that you should earn your help, not expect it for nothing. I'm not against helping those who need it. I, along with many others, am against helping those who expect it for nothing in return and make no effort to better themselves.


If I work my butt of to make some money, why should 20% of MY WORK AND MY TIME go to help some person in the ghetto who sits on their porch all day not contributing or even attempting to contribute? Sound extreme? It's not, because it happens. Take a drive in inner city LA, Detroit or Dallas and look.

and guns ownership is strictly controlled (the government and the King of England has yet to take advantage of it and crush my human rights

Sorry this comment just irked me becuase you're being ignorant to history. The 2nd Amendment (From the Constitution, our founding document) gives us the right because we WERE being oppressed by the King of England at the time. And as for the gov't part, I guess you never heard about the "Articles of Confederation" before the Constitution, or the American Civil War?

 

[Maya]

Ridryder, thank you for the information. I'll definitely be getting involved! I'll do my best to tell other EMTs about it too, because I really had no idea, myself, that these issues even existed until recently. I think it's fantastic that you're involved in advocating for EMS issues. That sets you apart as one of a very select few.

 

[Melclin]

You have less than 10% of our population.

And almost exactly 10 times the annual budget. So no, I think you could pay for everyone's health care. As I was going to point out untill I read more of your post and saw that you already had, you already spend more per capita than any other developed nation, yet you have the worst health care. If u can stop a problem before it happens, with easy access to health services before people get sick, it costs less. It's a commonly accepted fact by all health health academics and experts everywhere else in the world.

Yes I know capitalism drives innovation. I'm not at all against it. But, its a cruel beast and needs to be tempered from time to time. The odd bit of government regulation here, a charity there.

On the cancer survival rates, I cannot comment on without some extensive research that I can't be bothered doing. But I suspect there are some qualifying factors to the blanket state, like, "higher survival rates out of the people that can get treatment".

On the topic of welfare, you're quite right, earning your keep if you can is perfectly reasonable. I disagree with some of the recent welfare policies here, as I feel it aims to much money at young people who are perfectly capable of working, and not enough at the people who can't help themselves (disabled, pentioners), which is the point of welfare.

On the topic of what America gives to the world monetarily, mostly it does not give the most in absolute terms. More importantly, in relative terms, as a percentage of American GDP you rank 22nd in the world behind a host of developed nations, and most of what you do give goes to the middle east..I wonder why. If you were referring to common charity, internally, then perhaps you're right. I couldn't say.

As far as those ghettos you refer to ... thats kind of my point. Do you think its a coincidence that countries with excellent social justice and welfare programs don't have the problems you just mentioned? As you just said in America, nobody "wants to give their hard earned cash to some welfare cheat". Point proven really. Locked in a cycle of thinking the poor should just work their way out of poverty. It's probably not possible, and if it is, its definitely not probable. By that I mean, should they work harder? Probably. But ignoring the problem until everyone magics a better work ethic or leaving them to wallow in poverty certainly will not help - cycle of poverty (inextricably linked to the cycle of crime and drugs which become everyone else's problem). Regardless of ideology, regardless of what those nasty poor people deserve, you would probably find that those problems you mentioned would clear up after a few generations with similar programs as the rest of the developed world.

 

[Ridryder911]

Ridryder, thank you for the information. I'll definitely be getting involved! I'll do my best to tell other EMTs about it too, because I really had no idea, myself, that these issues even existed until recently. I think it's fantastic that you're involved in advocating for EMS issues. That sets you apart as one of a very select few.

No problem, I am conservative in nature but realize there is not really such as thing as a Democrat or even Republican. All politicians are crooked until proven otherwise. Obama would had traded sides immediately if the deal was great enough as well as Republican leaders. One thing in common, they are all in for it for themselves.

I have attended the formal dinners and balls. I've seen the smoochin on both sides of the lobbyist and the politicians. It's totally disgusting to think the common person is fooled and actually pays for their amusement. Meanwhile, rural areas have no EMS, middle class cannot afford cancer treatments and the elderly get to choose either food or medicine. Just think if both parties, placed the monies spent on one day of campaigning how much funding that would go to.

EMS is too meek and mild when it comes to standing up for themselves. Unfortunately, everyone else is informing them that EMS is really a part of them... thus dilution occurs.
If there is funding it is shifted into special projects such as for WMD for rural USA or similar idiotic projects to feed bureaucrats.

I don't how many Fire Service grants I have seen wasted money. Fortunately, they were able to shift their budgets and purchase routine equipment with grants and hire more FTE. Even though, the rest of the business world would have to reduce if production was down. EMS received very little grant monies. Meanwhile granny that has an AMI cannot receive ALS and maybe not even BLS.

How much professional development does student's get? We instituted in two programs that I consult at "A day at the Capital". All EMT students are required to go to the Capital and meet their representative. They have the option to discuss EMS and health care bills or not, but they have to meet them. Definitely, an eye opener on both parts. EMS bills as well are now being noticed more and especially after our little fiasco with the trooper; no legislature does not know about EMS and Paramedics.

Again, for those not involved then don't complain. You are worse than those than those are against funding EMS. At least they take a stand.

R/r 911

 

[Ridryder911]

And almost exactly 10 times the annual budget. So no, I think you could pay for everyone's health care. As I was going to point out untill I read more of your post and saw that you already had, you already spend more per capita than any other developed nation, yet you have the worst health care. If u can stop a problem before it happens, with easy access to health services before people get sick, it costs less. It's a commonly accepted fact by all health health academics and experts everywhere else in the world.

Yes I know capitalism drives innovation. I'm not at all against it. But, its a cruel beast and needs to be tempered from time to time. The odd bit of government regulation here, a charity there.

On the cancer survival rates, I cannot comment on without some extensive research that I can't be bothered doing. But I suspect there are some qualifying factors to the blanket state, like, "higher survival rates out of the people that can get treatment".

On the topic of welfare, you're quite right, earning your keep if you can is perfectly reasonable. I disagree with some of the recent welfare policies here, as I feel it aims to much money at young people who are perfectly capable of working, and not enough at the people who can't help themselves (disabled, pentioners), which is the point of welfare.

On the topic of what America gives to the world monetarily, mostly it does not give the most in absolute terms. More importantly, in relative terms, as a percentage of American GDP you rank 22nd in the world behind a host of developed nations, and most of what you do give goes to the middle east..I wonder why. If you were referring to common charity, internally, then perhaps you're right. I couldn't say.

As far as those ghettos you refer to ... thats kind of my point. Do you think its a coincidence that countries with excellent social justice and welfare programs don't have the problems you just mentioned? As you just said in America, nobody "wants to give their hard earned cash to some welfare cheat". Point proven really. Locked in a cycle of thinking the poor should just work their way out of poverty. It's probably not possible, and if it is, its definitely not probable. By that I mean, should they work harder? Probably. But ignoring the problem until everyone magics a better work ethic or leaving them to wallow in poverty certainly will not help - cycle of poverty (inextricably linked to the cycle of crime and drugs which become everyone else's problem). Regardless of ideology, regardless of what those nasty poor people deserve, you would probably find that those problems you mentioned would clear up after a few generations with similar programs as the rest of the developed world.

What you and others fail to recognize is the laziness. Sorry, but I have known medics return back to medicaid and welfare because it was easier and they received almost $20,000 worth of benefits my FTE did not receive.

Yes, you can work yourself out of poverty. It has demonstrated numerous times, but again.. "Why?". Part of the problem of the bleeding heart liberalism methodology is that we have made many socially retarded. That it is much easier not to be productive. Why would anyone not want disability, food stamp type programs, free medical/dental and not only tuition but to get paid while attending school?

I am all for helping those that need it. Especially the ill and the elderly but that it is not what has happened. It has stopped being a hand up and now is a hand out.

I have students that attend EMT classes because they recieve funding not only for the tution but get paid being there. As of yet, out of the 70 or so; have ever have one take the final or get a job within EMS. Why should they? They just go to another program and do it again.... They don't even have to pass the tests.

ER's are full here because it has became a clinic. It is not that they don't have primary care physicians it is because they don't want to have to wait or schedule to be seen.
This type of abuse takes funding away from those that desperately need it. Families with members that have seriously ill or chronic diseases.

I am now all in favor for Socialized medicine. I am ready for the rest of the world to start paying for the research and development of medicines and procedures. As well, let them make up the profit margin to pharmaceutical corporations.

I can assure you when other countries have to pay an increase of 10-15% more for medications and medical devices, they will have wished we would have stayed our same capitalistic selves. The let's stop all foreign aid. Truthfully, we could fund all citizens with health care on what we spend on other countries, and while we are at it... collect on what other countries owes us. France and Japan could not afford what they owe us from rebuilding from WWII.

There is one common denominator .. there is no easy answer. One person will never change it alone and doubtful I or my children will ever see the change.

R/r 911

 

[Melclin]

How much money do you think you give to other countries? Withdrawing you foreign aid wouldn't be enough to foot our health bill let alone yours.

Ideological rubbish aside, the government already spends enough on health to provide similar systems as are in place in other countries. If that money way redirected in subtle ways, you probably could sustain a socialised healthcare system without to much trouble. Americas current financial woes not withstanding.

Yes I know people are selfish. That's my point about expecting the problem to fix itself. You can't sit there and say well they can just stay in poverty and if they'd just work harder it will all be better, because their poverty becomes your problem (crime, ER, police, jails costing money). Like I said that might be true but its not ganna happen. Injecting money into fixing the problem will ultimately save money once the problems are fixed and improve society for everyone.

I might add that when I say welfare, I don't mean free money. We have a program here called work for the doll where people work for the government/community (cleaning public places, planting tree etc, similar to the idea of community service), while they receive counseling on employment issues and must show a number of genuine attempts at seeking employment every week to receive their welfare. It's not perfect, but just because the government tried food stamps and cheques and it doesn't work, doesn't mean the idea of government social support systems is a write off. There are other ways of doing things.

I don't quite understand your point about the extra cost involved with socialised medicine. I suppose you are suggesting that if America had government funded health care they would be paying pharm companies less and other countries would have to pick up the tab? Why? They still get the money. Johnny still pays $250 a pill for Megasupersol, but the government helps johnny pay it. Big pharma gets their money anyway. We went through all this in 'health systems' last year. In fact pharm companies actually have to be more competitive in places with socialised systems because it acts as a consumer advocacy group. The government picks up the bill so the government watches the pharma companies more carefully for unethical and unfair practice. The competition still happens, only the companies have some regulations by which to play and so instead of making money unfairly they are left with producing a good product to satisfy demand - capitalism. Capitalism is a great game, but people aren't going to play fair, unless there is a rule book and an umpire.

In any reply on the topic of things like free tuition, free health care, including your's Rid, the fact that it works in every other country, and works quite well, is never addressed. You say things like "it wouldn't work" or "people would just take advantage and the whole thing would fall in a heap". Sometimes it needs to be approached creatively and somethings don't work the first time around, some things need to be adjusted or reevaluated, but it does work. There are many many examples all over the world of it working. Why is this never a factor in American justifications for being anti social justice/welfare/socialhealth/state run services.

 

[PapaBear434]

I have many arguments for Universal Health Care. But I'll leave this main one:

Two months worth of tax money we were spending in Iraq could pay for the health care of every person in this country for a year. Why aren't we?

People like to cite other countries wasting tax money and spending so much more in taxes. They don't pay THAT much more than us. They just choose to "waste" their money on health care for all of their people, while we choose to "waste" it blowing up brown people in a sand box because they had the misfortune of being born with oil under them.

 

[Shishkabob]

Better things to spend the money on than healthcare that would actually have a positive effect on the country in the future...

Education.



I'd much rather have smart people that pay for their own healthcare than idiots that demand that it gets provided to them when they are of no contribution to the country.


Harsh? You bet ya! But true.

When you can answer this question, you will have changed my mind:

Why punish those who can help, and reward those who choose not to better themselves?

 

[Melclin]

This country was founded off of hard work--- why change that? Why punish those that contribute, and reward those that do not? When you can answer that question in a logical manner, then you will have changed my mind.

Exactly the kind of attitude I was talking about in my original post, and shows a clear lack of understanding of complexity of the issues at hand. In any other developed nation in the world this sort of thinking is considered laughably ignorant by the majority of people let alone people involved in health care. However, you make an excellent point about education. I agree that it is more important to publicly fund that (but its easy to do both). If the world run by Melcin was having financial difficulties, which it undoubtedly would be if I were running it, education would be the last thing to lose funding.

I'll say it again: It's not doing away with hard work, its not going to tear apart the fabic of society, its not replacing capitalism with communism, its simply a matter of reallocating money that is being poorly spent and putting into a system that is fairer, more efficient and that provides much better care for everyone. The wealthy can still get better care, it just provides a baseline level of care. Just like public vs private schools. A socialized system does not necessarily exclude a private system, they co-exist, just as with education.

If I can't afford a medication, or a procedure that I need that month because I'm trying to get my business off the ground, or I'm studying at university, or my insurance doesn't cover it for some reason, that does not mean I am not contributing. You cannot possibly think that society is drawn perfectly down the line of those that do contribute and those that don't, where all the 'DOs' have enough money for health, and all the 'DON'Ts' are too poor to afford health care. This seems to be a common idea in America, you believe in a meritocracy (and why shouldn't you, that's fair enough) but many of you seem to think that money automatically follows merit. It does not and as poorly paid EMTs and Paramedics, you of all people should know that isn't true. Besides, even quite wealthy people who contribute significantly can be completely financially crippled by, say, a chronically ill elderly parent.

More Importantly: As I have said before, aside from the ideology of whether or not you think people deserve it, comparatively, societies work better with it than without it.

There are many fantastically logical and very important arguments out there, articulated far better than any of us are capable of, for your consumption if you choose to look for them, and look for them with a mind to appreciate them rationally, not to prove how wrong and liberal they are. Of the people that properly understand all the issues involved in health systems, the vast majority of them around the world agree with some form socialized health model. Putting some trust in those experts instead of our own half baked ideas that we got from google and our own limited experience, would be wise. Some of these arguments I've made are those of my professor that took me for 'Health Systems' last year.

 

[Shishkabob]

I don't know how much of Obamas plan gets siphoned overseas, but obviously not enough. As of the current plan that's in Congress right now, employers, and not just big corporations but small mom and pop shops too, would be fined for not offering health insurance to their employees.

It would also fine the individual for opting to not have insurance. They are making it a CRIME to choose not do cover yourself! That's absurd! Many people, mainly in the early 20's, opt to not have insurance even though they can afford it, because they are healthy. Screw them, right?



Shelter is a necessity, yet I don't see any plans or people demanding we provide houses to all people free of cost and to take it out of our paychecks.

Water is a necessity, yet I don't see any laws being passed to allow any and everyone to get free water when they demand it.

Food is a necessity, yet I see no laws pertaining to giving it to any and all people.



What makes healthcare a right? What makes healthcare more important then shelter, food, and water?

 

[Maya]

I can only tell you about what it was like when I was living in a building in LA run by a Slumlord. It opened my eyes to what it actually feels like to have to live in poverty. I don't mean it to sound like a whiny 'poor-me' type of story. It's just that I had not been aware of the reality of what it's like to live in this type of situation until I was in it.

44-unit building. The building was pretty dirty, not a great part of town, but I'm not a snob. The apartment itself looked like it was fixed-up to a somewhat liveable standard. The neighbors are nice. The lady in the apartment below me doesn't speak English, but she sells homemade pupusas and tamales out of her apartment, so I stop by after work sometimes. There's a taco truck that comes by outside everyday and lots of people from the building go outside, chat, and eat tacos. My Spanish isn't great, so they're nice to me, but sometimes it's difficult to communicate.

Couple weeks go by and I'm seeing a lot of bugs in the apartment. A couple months pass and my apartment is now completely infested with cockroaches. They're living in the microwave and toaster, underneath the fridge, dropping from the ceiling out of the light fixtures. And I start getting these bites, but I don't know where they're coming from, because I don't think that cockroaches bite. The bites turn into these really itchy and painful welts an inch across in diameter. I'm fighting with the landlord at this point and he does nothing. Has a guy come by with a bug bomb. I have to clean my apartment whenever he comes by and put EVERYTHING I own in bags, so that it's not contaminated by chemicals. This happens about six or seven times, is completely exhausting, and does NOTHING. He refuses to pay for a real exterminator. I turn into a cleaning maniac. Clean out the radiator and get sick for two weeks, not realizing that there was probably asbestos in the ducts. I soon find out from one of the neighbors that the welts I have are from bedbugs, which the building is infested with -- they are nearly impossible to get rid of. Find out that the building is also infested with mice and termites. At this point, I feel like I am starting to go slightly crazy. I am not talking to or visiting my friends and won't let them come over to my place, because I don't want them to pick-up the bedbugs and infest their homes. I have no friends and no one to talk to and I'm starting to get depressed.

I go to sleep at night hearing the baby next door crying, every night. I later find out that it's because the baby is also covered with 20-30 of these large, painful, and itchy bedbug bites all over it's body and the baby has respiratory and other health problems. His parents are fighting, sometimes throwing things and the cops are called a few times for domestic dispute. I later find out that the dad is a drug-addict. He's a little crazy, stole knives from one of my neighbors, and a few months later jumped out of my neighbor's window (4th floor) when he was high, and somehow miraculously survived.

The neighbor on the 4th floor I made friends with, a gay guy, I later find out is a male prostitute. I also have people propositioning me for sex, trying to get me into high-class prostitution elsewhere in LA (that's LA), and while I would never do this, it starts to occur to me that I have no money and am quickly going into debt. Despite the fact that I would never do this, I start to wonder, 'at what point do you really become that desperate, that you could actually justify it? How much more has to go wrong for me to become that desperate?' I've always been an optimist, but despite my optimism, I have to admit, that things have only gotten worse for me and could continue to get worse.

The guy on the fourth floor was my best friend in the building and was the one person who fought the landlord with me, more than anyone else. We called the Health Department many, many times. When the landlord started harassing people and threatening to evict people who had been living there for 12+ years, we went to court as witnesses to try to fight him.

The people he was trying to evict were paying low rent, $400-500, because they had been there so long. It used to be a much worse neighborhood, so he kept the rent low and let the building fall into disrepair. Most of these tenants did not speak English and were illegal. When they get evicted, they are forced to pay double to triple the rent, while still working for less than minimum wage. Now that the neighborhood was becoming more trendy, the landlord would find any reason whatsoever to evict tenants and raise the rent to $800-1200/ mo.

I start hearing stories about what had happened to other tenants in the building and I can hardly even believe some of these stories. I hear a story about woman on the fourth floor who had been living there for 35 years, with another lady friend. The two ladies were in their eighties, and the lady friend is now dead, but I am told that when she was alive, she had arthritis and had trouble walking down the stairs (elevator was broken every day). There are no railings on the stairs and she is afraid to walk down the stairs, so it takes her an hour each time she walks up or down the stairs. The landlord REFUSES to pay to put railings on the stairs (violation of building codes), and she falls down the stairs, breaking her hip and suffering other injuries. The two ladies pay $600 out of pocket to have a railing put in. She dies soon after that. I finally meet the lady who lives on the fourth floor and visit her apartment. The ceiling and walls are falling in in certain places and one of the windows is about to fall out of its frame.

A ten year old girl comes to my door one night and she's crying. She knows that me and the guy on the fourth floor are the one's who fight the landlord and she thinks that I can help her. I, somewhat naively, believe that I can, because at this point I still believe in the justice system. Her mom doesn't speak English, works two jobs and still has no money. The landlord is trying to evict them. They have no money to move. She shows me pictures of how the ceiling fell in when she was eight. The landlord wouldn't fix it for SIX MONTHS and she got sick from the dust, mold, and particles. They've gone through six mattresses and three sofas, because they have to keep throwing them out when they're infested with bedbugs and the landlord refuses to reimburse them.

We go to court to fight the landlord, but he brings five guys along with him and they LIE in court, despite our testimonies and evidence against him. He provides a FAKE lease agreement, with a FRAUDULENT social security number for the mother. We have a second date to go back to court.

The landlord is now serving eviction notices to the guy on the 4th floor and several other people. He is harassing people. I go to a lawyer, and he tells me that it's almost impossible to win a case against a slumlord -- "throw a rock out of the window and you can hit any one of another 100 buildings just like it." He does tell me that you can fight the evictions, however. I try to get people together to form a tenant's association. It's difficult though, because I don't speak Spanish, and many of the people are afraid of getting reported to immigration, or getting harassed by the landlord and being served an eviction notice themselves. The landlord is, at this point, going into my apartment and my neighbor's apartment when we're not home and several times actually STOLE the evidence we had against him to take to court! A few times, they let themselves in when I was there, thinking that I wasn't, which was disturbing enough in itself.

The young girl, her mother and her sister, moved out before the eviction proceedings had finished. They didn't want to deal with the harassment anymore, although they would've won the case. The guy on the 4th floor moved out and is STILL, 1 1/2 years later, being harassed by the landlord and is still going through court proceedings. I was broke and gave up. I knew that we couldn't do anything if all of the tenant's weren't willing to get involved. (He owned 7 other buildings that I knew of, but when I went to the records department of the court house, I found in the least 20 properties under various names -- a tactic that slumlords often use, so they are not discovered by the authorities. I stopped looking, there could have been more).

I left the building. I lost EVERYTHING I had, because everything was infested and I didn't want to bring the bugs with me. I was extremely depressed and had nightmares for a year-and-a-half. Felt responsible for the girl and her family getting evicted. I really thought that I could help her.

Don't get me wrong, I don't feel in the least bit sorry for myself. I don't want to sound whiny. I am the lucky one, because I had the OPTION to move out. I have the education to move on and to recover from that experience. Most people do not have those options, and they have no one to advocate for them, because the majority of people don't care. I'm sure most people who even read this will find it wearisome and boring.

There are people who take advantage of the system, which is terrible. But for each one who does, there are many more who desperately need help to survive. Nobody would ever CHOOSE to live in poverty. It's an entirely different world that most of us could never understand. Even if you work in that environment, you can probably go home and sleep comfortably in your house in the suburbs. It's nothing like going to sleep hearing gunshots, living in filth, and wondering if you'll be able to feed or clothe your kids next month.

Okay, sorry about the long rant. I just don't like to accept that we can't do anything to change things.

 

[Maya]

On the subject of the Healthcare System, I know what you're talking about repeat visits to the ER. There's an article here for people who don't know:
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/07/repeat_super_users_are_swampin.html

Maybe the solution would be to redirect these repeat users to Medical Facilities equipped to deal with them.

Another aspect of technology that may revolutionize EMS and the Healthcare System, although it will be costly, may the implementation of better computer systems, allowing remote access and sharing of files and medical histories. It would allow for better patient care. Just imagine if you showed up on-scene and had all of the past pertinent medical history of your patient on file. Not to mention, if you had information about the address in question, to know if there has been a long history of violent domestic disputes -- you would already know right away to call for back-up and to be on guard. Imagine how much more efficiently and safely we could operate and how much we could improve the treatment that we provide. I know it will take a lot of money and time to implement, but it looks like they are just starting now to use this technology.

I know I'm an Idealist, so be patient with me!