Only if you have been attacked on the job

[mycrofft]

Please, no what- ifs and I-heard-abouts. Maybe if you were working with the person who was attacked and saw it yourself.

Please share the following if you experienced an attack on the job by a patient , bystander or patient's relative:

1. What was the weapon? (hands, feet, chemical spray, firearm, knife, other/improvised?

2. How much time between warning (besides your "spider sense") and attack did you have before it was "off to the races"?

3. Were you injured? If so, was it minor (no break in skin no fx/LOC/serious contusions), serious (broken skin, minor fractures of toes or fingers or nose, possible closed head injury/concussion, lost time from work) or major (hospitalized, lost much time from work, temporary or permanent disability).
You can just write what category to conceal your medical info if you wish.

4. Did you fight back, and if so, did it work? Was the patient injured further by it? Was the perp arrested?

5. Looking back, how do you realistically (and without unduly blaming yourself) think you could have prevented it from happening? Did you feel your employer wanted you to go into a dangerous situation?

I am not trying to scrape off old psychological scabs here and if you want just to PM me, fine, I can share just as much or as little as you wish, or none at all.

To resort back to one of Mycrofft's Precepts of EMTLIFE:

"Show me the bodies" ("habeus corpus").

 

[mycrofft]

JUst as a starter:
I've been stricken or seriously grabbed maybe five times and backed off a patient defensively twice. This is between 1972 and 2010. I've stayed out of reach or waited for LE assist many more times without any negative impact on patient outcome.
My worst injury was a scratch to the back of my hand when I misapplied a palm lock on a drunk with long dirty fingernails (before the days of EMT's wearing gloves), which taught me "going hands on" is not a therapeutic approach. :rofl:
I have been spit on, had coffee thrown at me (missed), a diabetic with Hep C knowingly tried to smear blood on me, and a loony old lady tried to climb my tie like a rope (clip-ons after that); a psych pt/axe murderer gathered to leap but two deputies chilled him out verbally.

 

[Veneficus]

I would ask, who hasn't been attacked on this job?

I have been punched so many times I could not possibly recount them all. Threatened even more. I even had a patient stalk me.

Broken skin? yep. Bruising? yep, Temporary loss of work, yep. Fortunately no fractures.

I would say I probably avoided many more serious injuries by luck than anything I did or didn't do.

Most of the time, in my experience, you either know you are about to do something that can hurt you, like trying to restrain somebody who is mentally altered. (Usually of their own accord and not because of medical condition) or it is basically a "cheap shot" with no warning until after the hit.

I have been cornered in an ambulance by an angry mob hoping for the sheriff to show up.

I have seen shots come through doors and once even found myself on the working end of a shotgun. (that guy was actually altered from being hypoglycemic and because of the neighborhood, it was normal for people to barricade themselves in their homes at night. We were called for a welfare check by family who claimed he wasn't answering the phone. We were lucky he didn't shoot us, had he decided to, there would have been nothing we could have done.)

I have fled the scene on foot more than once.

One of my favorite stories was a 911 response where the caller was disarming his home protection booby traps as he led us through the house to the back room where his elderly grandmother was. He had some really good ones. After the call, the house was put on the "let that thing burn, under no circumstances enter it if it is on fire list.

The most notable of the traps was at the front door. He had sawed an old steel vending machine and kept the bottom 3rd just inside the door. It was basically a knee-high metal box. Because of the steps leading to the house and the hight and length of the box, in order to get in the front door, you had to step in it. You would never be able to jump over it. To this he connected a rigged extension cord from the 110v outlet on the wall.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

I have been attacked and assaulted multiple times.


1. What was the weapon? (hands, feet, chemical spray, firearm, knife, other/improvised?

Knives, Guns, Swords, Biting, Fist, kicking, Broken bottle/glass

2. How much time between warning (besides your "spider sense") and attack did you have before it was "off to the races"?

Almost no time in the most dangerous ones involving knives and guns, more time in the ones involving biting, kicking, ect.

3. Were you injured? If so, was it minor (no break in skin no fx/LOC/serious contusions), serious (broken skin, minor fractures of toes or fingers or nose, possible closed head injury/concussion, lost time from work) or major (hospitalized, lost much time from work, temporary or permanent disability).
You can just write what category to conceal your medical info if you wish.


Yes, one time with broken bloody class that was impaled into my hand. I had to do a year of HIV test, other times it was minor bruising, capillary damage and contusions, plus the mental shock of staring down a loaded 38


4. Did you fight back, and if so, did it work? Was the patient injured further by it? Was the perp arrested?

Yes, almost everytime. I was able to escape or fight the attacker off with assistance but I was almost killed twice on duty by a handgun once and the other time a knife. It was pure luck I was not.

5. Looking back, how do you realistically (and without unduly blaming yourself) think you could have prevented it from happening? Did you feel your employer wanted you to go into a dangerous situation?

I do not know other than sending law enforcement to every call, most of these calls where not violent in nature when dispatched. in almost every case the person was under the influence of a substance, or had a head injury secondary to trauma

I got a lesson learned from some of these, free HIV test for others, and an accommodation award for the gun incident. Not much to show considering the risk

 

[mycrofft]

I musta been in a good neighborhood. Weird but good.

 

[Bullets]

I have been assaulted twice while working

The first:
Dispatched for a fall in a rougher section of the neighborhood but a place i have been multiple times without incident, caller reports man fell off sidewalk into street and is laying there. We arrive and i park my truck past the patient, i get out and walk down the driver side while my partner gets the bag out of the passenger side. I approach the patient and see 3 blood spots on his chest. SPIDEY SENSE this is a shooting. I tell my partner get on the radio and call for backup while i grab the patient and drag him towards the ambulance. my intent is to throw him in the truck and haul. A crowd has gathered and some are making threats, all are wearing a similar color clothing. At this point i have lifted the patient into the truck and lay him on the cot. As i do so someone grabs me from behind. i Instinctively kick backwards and see a guy fall to the ground. I shut the door and hit the lock button, locking myself and partner with the patient inside the box. I am on the radio again giving more info. At this point i get two sheriff cars with 4, plus a state trooper who happened to be getting dinner a few blocks away before our local leos get there. They manage to clear space for me to get into the drivers seat and go

Total on scene time was 6 minutes, felt like 6 hours. No one was injured and it was a gang related shooting

Second Time:
Also a fall in the street patient was clearly intoxicated and we arrive and decide to get the cot and pick the patient up and throw her on the cot. The patients brother took issue with this and began to get verbal with myself and crew. I told the crew to load and get in the truck while i attempted to engage in verbal judo. I see the brothers weight shift and i think PUNCH! I duck, drive my shoulder into his gut and go to ground. Thankfully my crew saw this and hit the Emergency button. I manage to get him on his stomach and hold him until a number of cops show up. Minor scrapes from the pavement, but otherwise no injuries

In both cases we entered scenes that were presumed to be safe, but became unsafe, nothing we could have done.

I fought in the second time because i was not about to get punched in the face

I also entered a house for a report of bleeding, to find a mexican standoff between a boyfriend and another guy with their unknowingly shared sex partner laying shot in between. as we were hastily leaving one party called his friends for backup. As we stepped out onto the sidewalk we found three more gentlemen with blunt weapons who told us to get out of here. We fled on foot and met the patrol cars three blocks down

 

[Achilles]

I would ask, who hasn't been attacked on this job?

I have been punched so many times I could not possibly recount them all. Threatened even more. I even had a patient stalk me.

Broken skin? yep. Bruising? yep, Temporary loss of work, yep. Fortunately no fractures.

I would say I probably avoided many more serious injuries by luck than anything I did or didn't do.

Most of the time, in my experience, you either know you are about to do something that can hurt you, like trying to restrain somebody who is mentally altered. (Usually of their own accord and not because of medical condition) or it is basically a "cheap shot" with no warning until after the hit.

I have been cornered in an ambulance by an angry mob hoping for the sheriff to show up.

I have seen shots come through doors and once even found myself on the working end of a shotgun. (that guy was actually altered from being hypoglycemic and because of the neighborhood, it was normal for people to barricade themselves in their homes at night. We were called for a welfare check by family who claimed he wasn't answering the phone. We were lucky he didn't shoot us, had he decided to, there would have been nothing we could have done.)

I have fled the scene on foot more than once.

One of my favorite stories was a 911 response where the caller was disarming his home protection booby traps as he led us through the house to the back room where his elderly grandmother was. He had some really good ones. After the call, the house was put on the "let that thing burn, under no circumstances enter it if it is on fire list.

The most notable of the traps was at the front door. He had sawed an old steel vending machine and kept the bottom 3rd just inside the door. It was basically a knee-high metal box. Because of the steps leading to the house and the hight and length of the box, in order to get in the front door, you had to step in it. You would never be able to jump over it. To this he connected a rigged extension cord from the 110v outlet on the wall.

Was the temporary vacation from work because of healing or an administrative decision?

Sorry mycroft, I've never been in a fight but vene usually tells good stories.

 

[Veneficus]

Was the temporary vacation from work because of healing or an administrative decision?

Non-punitive administrative.

 

[Veneficus]

Sorry mycroft, I've never been in a fight but vene usually tells good stories.

and anyone who has worked with me can attest, when it comes to attracting crazy stuff, I am the world's most powerful $***magnet.

So much so, I actually warn people when I first start.

 

[BeachMedic]

When I worked in an urban setting a crew getting attacked was not an uncommon occurrence. I've had to drive code to to aid other crews being attacked on multiple occasions. It was also not uncommon to find all kinds of weapons on people who had, "already been searched by law."

Had a sweet little old lady with an ice pick one time. Asked why she needed that and her response was, "Well you know..it is Oakland". That was kind of funny.

Been on the receiving end of an attack on numerous occasions, no significant injuries to note. Had a partner kicked in the face while I was tussling with someone on the freeway and he was walking around with a messed up nose for a bit.

Had another partner who was tackled by a 5150 with a knife. Thank god she didn't get stabbed.

Had a patient that was altered/unconscious/faking who decided to wake up out of nowhere and attack us in triage. He was a scratcher. Haha me and my partner from that day were walking around with the scratch scars on our arms fist bumping them for months.

I'm not a little guy though, that's probably enough of a deterrent/asset in those situations. Thank goodness versed didn't have to be drawn out of a vial in that county either haha.

I will say that in the county I've been working in over the last year I haven't been attacked or had to come to another crews aid once. The medics are also a little less comfortable/cavalier with their chemical restraint. If it takes 5-6 police officers to physically restrain a combative patient, then they are getting a shot before getting placed on my gurney. Learned that lesson during my FTO time when a patient who punched through a number of windows flailed in the back of my ambulance and put blood on me and everything else. Brought the patient into triage and had a ER nurse lecture me and say that she rather have a patient barely breathing (snowed) than acting like that lol.

Not to say i'm an advocate of violence. I can assure you that my sentiments are quite the opposite. I'd say 99.5% of the time everything can be resolved with a respectful attitude and approach. Or even just complete silence and letting the patient act out and scream whatever aggression they need to.
It's just that .5% of the time that things sometimes go sideways.

 

[WuLabsWuTecH]

Long ago my partner was attacked by a drunk man with a head injury. he came out of whatever it was he was on and grabbed her shirt and tried to pull her toward him. I grabbed our narcotics lockbox (a small 6x6x2 metal box we were using at the time) and hit him with it to give my partner a chance to move toward the back of the medic away from his arms. Fortunately, he was already backboarded and the only reason he had an arm free was to start an IV so the rest of him was tied down. The doctor at the hospital was the first one to notice the irony in him taking narcotics, being knocked out by them, getting narcan, coming out of it, and then being knocked out by a box containing... narcotics! "This man really needs to stay away from the drugs..."

Of course I don't really have many of these stories because I tend to stage a lot. After some people at my station were assaulted, I think I'm overcautious. I'll stage on remarks of the 911 call hearing screaming in the background for example. I had someone point out to me once that if grandma isn't breathing, there's probably going to be a lot of screaming by the grand kids, but I just don't want to end up like anyone of the guys at the station who ended up in the hospital because they didn't stage. Do I get called a p**** sometimes? Yeah. But i'd rather be a p**** who's free to attend classes at med school and go out drinking every now and again than they brave man who went into a scene and got himself shot or worse.

 

[MSDeltaFlt]

I've been bitten and punched so many times... all by psych patients. Threatened a few times by non-psych patients. All earlier in my career. Now that I'm older, and show a lot more confidence, my patients and bystanders tend to do as I suggest.

 

[med51fl]

I have been attacked a few times during my career. I have been shot at once (luckily we could get behind the ambulance until PD "neutralized" the shooter), had a gun pulled on me twice that we were able to talk our way away from. I have been hit, punched, and bitten on several occassions. The worst that caused injury was a patient who attacked with a box cutter. I used the needed force to stop her, but it cost me 52 sutures on my left side. In every incident involving the guns and knives it was unexpected. The physical altercations with the punching or hitting usually resulted from restraining psych / intox patients that could not be verbally convinced to comply. These patients were engaged until they were restrained (either physical or chemical) with as little force as needed.

 

[Anjel]

I have but it was because I was defending my partner who got the full blown attack.

1. What was the weapon? (hands, feet, chemical spray, firearm, knife, other/improvised?

Hands...Punching and slapping

2. How much time between warning (besides your "spider sense") and attack did you have before it was "off to the races"?

She was going crazy in the back of a police car, but calmed down when we opened the door. My partner reached out to help her step on the curb and the patient flipped her lid. So we knew there was a possibility of something happening.

3. Were you injured? If so, was it minor (no break in skin no fx/LOC/serious contusions), serious (broken skin, minor fractures of toes or fingers or nose, possible closed head injury/concussion, lost time from work) or major (hospitalized, lost much time from work, temporary or permanent disability).
You can just write what category to conceal your medical info if you wish.

I just had some bruises as I was trying to pull her off of my partner. My partner however, tore all of her ligaments and tendons in her thumb, broke her thumb, had surgery, and was placed on permanent light duty.

4. Did you fight back, and if so, did it work? Was the patient injured further by it? Was the perp arrested?

I just tried to pull her off. My partner did not fight back. Just put her hands up to cover her face. Sheriffs restrained patient, she was not arrested. We took her to the hospital.

5. Looking back, how do you realistically (and without unduly blaming yourself) think you could have prevented it from happening? Did you feel your employer wanted you to go into a dangerous situation?

I feel the sheriff should of been the one getting her out of the car. Not us.

 

[mycrofft]

I hope others are reading this.

Good honest raw material.

The only time an inmate laid hands on me (in a manner which might pertain to outside jail) was he was feigning some bizarre unconscious seizure sort of deal, and when I approached him on the exam table (which he didnt' fall off of) he flung his hand suddenly and tried to whack me on the abdomen. I was "bladed" to him and dodged back so I only got a golfball-sized diameter bruise over one hip.

 

[DesertMedic66]

I have been threatened and swung on numerous times.

The only time I actually got hit was a hypoglycemic patient. Patient is a known diabetic who we run on about once per week. He is always standing up with his fists raised trying to fight anyone.

The us and the fire department are all on scene together (5 people). We do a rapid take down and start looking for veins. The only vein that the medics could see was an EJ. As one medic is attempting to cath it one of the patients hands/arms gets free and punches me in the side. The arm is quickly pinned to the ground again.

Gave the patient D50 and he always turns into a really nice guy.

Crews don't get assaulted too much in my area. All the different LEO don't take us being hurt very lightly (patients have been tased, OC sprayed, and K-9 let loose all in the back of our ambulances). If we call for LEO assistance we are going to get every available officer (police, sheriff, highway patrol, fire chiefs, anyone with a gun who has the power to arrest).

 

[mycrofft]

" K-9 let loose all in the back of our ambulances"

Whoa, how did THAT work?

 

[johnrsemt]

Had a gun pulled on me twice; knives a bunch of times; didn't fight, just talked them down, with the radio keyed up so that dispatch knew what was up and the calvary was coming.

Had a few people take a swing at me: held metal clipboard in front of me twice; had it dented, had the patient break 3 of his fingers.

Had a dog sicked on me three times, 2 of them I ended up playing with the dog; the 3rd time the dog bit the owner, lunged at the officer as he arrived and was shot.

Was threatened by a carving fork that the guy had just pulled out of his 22 year old son's shoulder (son tried to eat the 2nd drumstick at thanksgiving dinner). Dad, Mom and uncle went to jail, son got the drumstick after all.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Whoa, how did THAT work?

Per the medic who that happened to "luckily the dog went straight for the patient/attacker and not me!"

The K-9 got the patients/attackers arm which made him sit back on the gurney. Then PD, the EMT, and the medic were able to restrain the patient/attacker just as 2 more police cars pulled up.