Liability of an EMT acting strictly as a driver.

[firecoins]

You can use google, and research case law regarding the rights of religions, and than also google legal opinions written about the subject, and find that free exercise has a very limited meaning. \.

That limited meaning does not oppose private ambulance service. Sorry. Hatzolah legally exists.

 

[daedalus]

That limited meaning does not oppose private ambulance service. Sorry. Hatzolah legally exists.

That was not my point, at this point I am trying to educate the other poster about the meaning of the first amendment. If you read the ruling made by the Justices of the Supreme Court, you will see that it only applies to idea and beliefs.
The law, whether US code, state statutes, or local ordinances, NEVER are all inclusive to the point that they specifically mention or exclude every possibility. Thats why judges and the legal system exist, to interpret the law. As stated, the Bill of Rights ONLY applies to ideas and beliefs. Actions (such as starting an ambulance service) are not guaranteed to you as a right, and therefor, are restricted actions based on laws, and yes, even by opinions of others like myself. The government guarantees you no right to run your own ambulance service, just as the government guarantees you no right to start a pharmaceutical company. Its silliness. You have to follow all applicable laws since it is not a guaranteed right, and since I am alive and a citizen, I can work to change those laws.

The other poster was under the impression that the bill of rights gave Hatzolah permission to run an EMS service. Thats not correct. They may still sun a service legally, but its not a guaranteed right. I hope your now understanding.

 

[MAC4NH]

What the supreme court said was that the first amendment applies to ideas and thoughts, not actions.

I never in my life thought I'd be defending Hatzolah but here goes: They are state certified EMT's who practice to the standard of care for the states in which they are certified. In NY and NJ, most ALS does not transport! Hatzolah does call ALS when indicated and does use ALS providers as required by the state's standard of care (BTW: don't even start about our BLS/ALS system. It works well based on our geography and our politics. That's not what this thread is about). So the old jewish man with the STEMI from your example is getting the same level of care as anyone calling 911. The reason the orthodox communities call Hatzolah is that they have many religious rules and rituals involving death that they do not want broken and Hatzolah understands and honors those rules. It's all perfectly legal and medically ethical based on local standards. The issue in the thread is about the liability of a driver that does not perform patient care.

Remember that this is a very large country what's perfectly natural for you in California may be totally alien out here in the East. We all follow the same basic standards on a national level but nuts and bolts protocols are still done locally.

 

[daedalus]

First non governmental ambulance services exist and are completly legal. They do have the right to go code 3. And no they don't blow through airport security when they do it.

Still off a little. Private ambulance services can only go code three while following local and state laws regarding their usages. For example, in LA county, a private ambulance cannot be dispatched code three to a residence.
(With one notable exception, and that is when requested to go go three by the local fire department).

 

[daedalus]

I never in my life thought I'd be defending Hatzolah but here goes: They are state certified EMT's who practice to the standard of care for the states in which they are certified. In NY and NJ, most ALS does not transport! Hatzolah does call ALS when indicated and does use ALS providers as required by the state's standard of care (BTW: don't even start about our BLS/ALS system. It works well based on our geography and our politics. That's not what this thread is about). So the old jewish man with the STEMI from your example is getting the same level of care as anyone calling 911. The reason the orthodox communities call Hatzolah is that they have many religious rules and rituals involving death that they do not want broken and Hatzolah understands and honors those rules. It's all perfectly legal and medically ethical based on local standards. The issue in the thread is about the liability of a driver that does not perform patient care.

Remember that this is a very large country what's perfectly natural for you in California may be totally alien out here in the East. We all follow the same basic standards on a national level but nuts and bolts protocols are still done locally.

I agree with you to a point. In my views on things, its not an acceptable practice, but those are my views, and I am not a EMSA administrator for your area so I would not worry

Im glad it works for you. And as for the OP, I would never sign a PCR in the stated situation.

**side point** we have to be smart when claiming rights from the government. For example, try walking into a mall with a shirt on that contains multiple profanities. Than, try explaining your right to free speech to the guard throwing you out. He will have a chuckle, and than proceed to throw you out. Try posting things here that break the rules, and claim your right to free expression of speech. Watch your post be deleted anyways. You need to know when your rights apply, and, when they do not.

 

[TheAfterAffect]

There have been many other issues in the past with Hatzolah, So if you were asking this question in regards to possibly doing the driver position, It wouldn't be reccomended.

Hatzolah has had a few court cases also because of their "explicit" catering to ONLY jewish PT's. A year or two ago one of the Hatzolah Chapters was brought to court because they passed a MVA with a few severly injured PT's (They didnt even radio in the MVA or stop to see if they were more needed there) because they were on their way to pick up a Rabbi, that for all intensive purposes, Stubbed his toe.

 

[JPINFV]

Well, the founding fathers kind of disagree with you. The first line of the Bill of Rights states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;." I don't agree with everything Hatzolah does, but they do provide a necessary service for a community that is very insulated from the rest of society that might not otherwise have access to EMS (I have issues with that too but I refer to Bill of Rights, above).

There are still limits that can be placed. Their religion does not dictate that they run an EMS service, therefore the first amendment does not protect Hatzolah from being regulated by government agencies. Similarly, just like the rest of the first amendment, there are always limitations that can be put in place. Just as you 'can't yell fire in a theater,' there are other restrictions that can be placed on religions (who wants to bet that something like the Inquisition would fly today because of "religious freedom?").

 

[MMiz]

No one is saying that Hatzolah is not being regulated by the government, in fact they often work with the government for the common good of the communities they serve.

I really know nothing about the service beyond what I've read on the internet in my searches related to this thread, but this seems to me like a neighborhood initiative that is so common in "the old country." The neighborhood comes together to reach common goals and provide services. I'm sure there are politics and quite a few people who disagree with the service, but I can't fault a community organization for trying to better meet the needs of the community.

 

[ffemt8978]

I can break it down:

1. Deception: Older Jewish folks are going to innately have immense trust and respect for a jewish/socio-cultural ambulance service. So when grandpa is having chest pain, he has his wife call up Hatzohloa, instead of the JURISDICTIONAL 911 ALS provider. Turns out he was having an AMI, but the EMTs from the jewish ambulance could only bring him to a local community hospital, without thrombolytics or a cath lab. He dies in the ICU after having to wait for a transport to a STEMI receiving hospital. An ALS ambulance could have transported him right to the STEMI center with a positive Dx from a 12 lead, and the patient could have been cathed under 90 minutes. The older jewish man is taught to trust the jewish ambulance, and he has no idea what ALS or BLS is, let alone the differences between the two. Some of you may try and argue that the EMTs might have called for an ALS mutual aid. What if his presentation was non-typical? Simple mild dyspnea with adb discomfort.

And that is different that the rest of the rural and remote ambulance services across the country how?

2. In a lot areas (including LA county, check protocol called "Transport and Destination" online) it is against the law for a private service to take emergency calls and dispatch a unit to a citizen's call for help (unless that service is a contracted 911 provider, and the patient is within their jurisdiction). If a private non contracted service receives a request for medical aid, they are required to tell the caller to dial 911 instead here in LA county. Even if this is not the law in your area, it is at least unethical to take private emergency calls. What if the call required heavy rescue or law enforcement? If the caller called 911 instead, the dispatcher would be able to professionally glean the information and send the appropriate response including Fire and PD. You may say the EMTs may be able to request these services from on scene, but you know that if the caller had dialed 911, all the services would have been dispatched ASAP.

Based upon this response earlier in the thread, it appears as if it is the patient's choice to contact this service...as is their right to chose their healthcare providers.

H exists as a "third-service" soliciting only emergency calls using a private dispatch number from members of the community and dispatching members from wherever they are. In principal, H can call in "mutual aid", that is the ambulance service naturally set up to cover the area, but as I understand it, they do very infrequently.

Or would you rather deny the patient their choice of providers just because they don't have a three digit phone number?

3. Homeland security issues already mentioned. We as a society must regulate use of emergency vehicles.

If the Hatzolah wants to provide inter-facility wheel chair van services that treat the sick and dying jewish with respect, thats a wonderful and amazing thing. Otherwise, its just monkey business providing emergency response. Come on...

Where does it say that a patient can't choose their own ambulance company? Any part of state, federal or even Medicare/Medicaid? What qualifies any 911 provider as being better than a service like this? They have the same equipment as a 911 agency certified to their same level, their personel must meet the same training standards, and they must all follow the same guidelines. They also have the additional ability to uderstand, respect, and operate within a very secular part of our society. To me, this is a good thing.

Not in my minds eye do they have that right. Not when it comes to responding to emergencies. Being a paramedic, driving an emergency vehicle, responding to calls for assistance, etc, all are GOVERNMENT functions (or government contracted functions). Its also a matter of homeland security. If we let anyone operate their own public safety departments, whats to stop an extremist group from claiming a "right" to operate its own services and than drive code 3 past airport security and wreak havoc? Im sorry, wayyyyy to sketchy to me.

I'm not even going to address your "Homeland security" concerns as they appear to be nothing more than an attempt to sensationilze your viewpoint but I will say this...there are hundreds of private ambulance companies that do 911 and interfacility work that are equiped, authorized, and do run code 3. 911 agencies do not have a lock on this ability. As a matter of fact, the non-emergent services I have seen tend to have better driving habits when driving code because they don't do it as often and tend to be more careful about it. (On a side note, I'd be interested to see what the accident percentages are when comparing 911 and non emergent services driving code 3).

 

[emt19723]

In my town there is an ambulance service you may all be aware of (Hatzolah [a VAS ran by Orthodox Jews.]) On Shabbos (the Sabbath) they pay non-Jewish drivers to drive their ambulances (I don't want to get into a debate of why they can drive their cars to the scene, but not the ambulance.) Basically the role of them (driver) is to wait around for a call, drive their car to the station, pick up the rig and take it to the scene where the EMTs will already be there in their POVs. The driver basically sits in the rig waiting for them to move the patient out of the house, opens any doors (that may involve using electricity) for them, drives the patient to the hospital, writes the PCR at the hospital, and drives the rig back to the station. The driver has minimal-to-no patient contact (and they mostly are speaking Yiddish to each other only.)

Now to the question, does the driver have any liability if pt tx goes against state protocol and the call gets called to court?

bet me id have ANYTHING to do with that PCR. lol and as far as the NY and NJ EMS being a liability.....that was funny!!!

 

[daedalus]

I'm not even going to address your "Homeland security" concerns as they appear to be nothing more than an attempt to sensationilze your viewpoint but I will say this...there are hundreds of private ambulance companies that do 911 and interfacility work that are equiped, authorized, and do run code 3. 911 agencies do not have a lock on this ability. As a matter of fact, the non-emergent services I have seen tend to have better driving habits when driving code because they don't do it as often and tend to be more careful about it. (On a side note, I'd be interested to see what the accident percentages are when comparing 911 and non emergent services driving code 3).

I appreciate your argument, however; A private company is a legally chartered organization with a purpose: to make money. They work under the laws established to provide services for a cost, and pay their employees. The frequently employee attorneys, MBAs, and MDs to help oversee their business and have a stake in following the rules (continue making money). They are also under public scrutiny for every mistake they make (do you think Haztolah is too?).

A volunteer EMS organization is chartered as a community service, not a device to further a culture. The same applies.

I am not the first one to bring up the topic of the dangers of ambulance theft and or illegal use. The Dept. of Homeland Security has the same fears. So does Britain http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2217076/Al-Qa'eda-style-terrorists-planning-UK-attacks-with-ambulances-bought-on-eBay.html

 

[firecoins]

[

There are still limits that can be placed. Their religion does not dictate that they run an EMS service, therefore the first amendment does not protect Hatzolah from being regulated by government agencies.

They are regulated by gov't agencies. And they are legal.They still can do code 3 response.

.

 

[daedalus]

[
They are regulated by gov't agencies. And they are legal.They still can do code 3 response.

.

How about trying to make an intelligent argument instead of assembling a few words into a poorly structured sentence. I understand they are allowed to run an ambulance, but why don't you try and find sources to back up your claims instead of an making such a response? Firecoins, I understand what you are sayin , but you are not hearing what I am saying.

 

[firecoins]

A volunteer EMS organization is chartered as a community service, not a device to further a culture. The same applies.

hatzolah does not "further" a culture. It is a charted EMS organization that provides a community service to Hasidic Jews who would not call 911 for medical emergencies. They are allowed to decide who provides medical care in their own comminty. Homeland Security does not override this decision.

I am not the first one to bring up the topic of the dangers of ambulance theft and or illegal use. The Dept. of Homeland Security has the same fears. [/URL]

Homeland Security can not and should not decide who can run an ambulance service and who can not. While there is a danger of ambulances can be stolen by terrorists this has as much application to ALL ambulance services. I fail to see this a legitimate argument on why Hatzolah is should not exist.

 

[firecoins]

How about trying to make an intelligent argument instead of assembling a few words into a poorly structured sentence. I understand they are allowed to run an ambulance, but why don't you try and find sources to back up your claims instead of an making such a response? Firecoins, I understand what you are sayin , but you are not hearing what I am saying.

I have made an intelligent argument instead the b.s. your putting foward. The constitution of the United States pretty backs me up. Homeland Securty does not decide which group an ambulance and which group can't. They are afraid ambulances can be used as weapons so religious Jews can't have their own ambulance? Good argmuent!

 

[medicdan]

Double post. SORRY!

 

[daedalus]

I have made an intelligent argument instead the b.s. your putting foward. The constitution of the United States pretty backs me up. Homeland Securty does not decide which group an ambulance and which group can't. They are afraid ambulances can be used as weapons so religious Jews can't have their own ambulance? Good argmuent!

Straw man argument.

Firecoins, where in the constitution are you seeing support for your argument? The constitution is a legal document giving the US government its powers. The citizens of the US empower the government to make certain decisions to further public safety. State side homeland Security is well well within its power to regulate the use of emergency vehicles. I am not putting forward BS, I am making arguments and backing them up with authoritative sources. Lets remember you and I are both people here and probably would be friends if we met in person so lets keep it civil.

 

[firecoins]

Firecoins, where in the constitution are you seeing support for your argument? The constitution is a legal document giving the US government its powers. The citizens of the US empower the government to make certain decisions to further public safety. State side homeland Security is well well within its power to regulate the use of emergency vehicles. I am not putting forward BS, I am making arguments and backing them up with authoritative sources. Lets remember you and I are both people here and probably would be friends if we met in person so lets keep it civil.

The constituion separates both state and federal powers and LIMITS that power.

1. Homeland Security does not regulate ambulances. The Department of Transportation provides minimum regulations. Check in your EMT book if you still have it.

2. State rights are in the constituion. Each individual state regulates ambulances that operate with in that state. NY and NJ have both authorized Hatzolah to operate. Dept. of Homeland Security has no right to come in make those decisions for NY and NJ.

3. the 1st amendment prevents the government from interfering with religion. Running an ambulance service for a religious community does not infringe on anyone else for the Federal government to come in and disolve it.

4. Picking out the Hasidic Jewish communties as not being able to run their own ambulances is discriminatory in nature countering Federal civil rights laws.

5. Why are Hatzolah ambulances more of a threat than other ambulances?
It is not hard for a "terrorist" to get hired as an EMT-B and steal an ambulance from a commercial or volunteer agency. The EMT class is only 150 hours and costs less than flight training. Or such a person could just wait at an ER and take one. Why is Hatzolah more suspectible to an ambulance being stolen? It is no way difficult to steal an ambulance from even government agencies.

I live in a county that Hatzolah operates. I am hardly their biggest fan. But they have a time and place

 

[KEVD18]

you know, i can pretty much guarantee that if i took a bigger part in this thread, it would already be on a time out.

yet i abstain and the arguments run rampant.

i think im being discriminated against......


j/k cl's. j/k.

 

[ffemt8978]

you know, i can pretty much guarantee that if i took a bigger part in this thread, it would already be on a time out.

yet i abstain and the arguments run rampant.

i think im being discriminated against......


j/k cl's. j/k.

Actually, I hadn't read this thread since I last posted in it.

But now that I'm here

This thread is heading in a very bad direction so it is on a 24 time out.