Ethical scenario about employee urinanlysis

[BOSlife]

So the topic has already been discussed and debated about medical marijuana laws (and now legal recreational use in WA and CO) and how these affect workplace drug policies. Now this post isn't meant to start a debate on the laws themselves (and whatever your opinion may be on drug use) but a sound, logical alternative for drug testing policy within the workplace. I am by no means advocating illegal or legal drug use by EMS professionals.

Take an incident like a minor traffic accident involving an ambulance and a civilian vehicle, the EMT/Paramedic is usually required to submit a urinanlysis following the accident. Say the EMT was driving in a state where marihuana is medically (or recreationally) legal and has used marijuana in a legal setting, on their own time, and there is no chance they are currently under the influence of any other drugs. What if the EMT denies urinanlysis (because they know they will test positive for marijuana...hasn't been the 30-60 days required for complete detoxification of THC) and instead demands a blood test be performed (more accurate of what was in their system at that time, and therefore protecting the EMTs right to legally using marijuana on their own time).

Could their be a legitimate case against the employer if they deny the EMT's request for a more accurate (albeit more expensive) test? Is testing and terminating employment for drug testing against 4th amendment rights of unreasonable search and seizure?

 

[Medic Tim]

Most places have a drug policy that you agree to follow by working there. Depending on the policy and the state you may be able to take or request a specific test. If you refuse to take a test I would not be surprised if the person is terminated. While it may be legal at he state level it isn't at the federal. If the agency receives any federal money , from what I hear they risk losing it.

What it comes down to is what is more important to you. Your job or smoking.

 

[DesertMedic66]

During an accident it is within the companies right to investigate what happened. So testing to see if the EMT/Medic has drugs in their system is part of that investigation.

Although THC is now legal in some states for medical usage and to smoke freely, it is still considered an illegal drug by the federal government.

If an EMT refuses to take a test after an accident has occurred different things can happen based on the company/area/accident. The company can terminate the employee. The employee can be placed on administrative leave. The employee could also be sited for DUI.

If an employee says "I don't want to take the urine test" that is going to raise a lot of questions. Saying "a blood test is more accurate" is also going to raise questions. There shouldn't be a reason that you test positive for THC in urine.

If you were exposed to THC at work then right up an incident report to CYA. I had to do this during my hurricane sandy response.

 

[BOSlife]

The employee could also be sited for DUI.

If an employee says "I don't want to take the urine test" that is going to raise a lot of questions. Saying "a blood test is more accurate" is also going to raise questions. There shouldn't be a reason that you test positive for THC in urine.

Why would an employee be cited for a DUI based on a positive urinalysis test for marijuana? I can't imagine that would hold up. No one urinalysis test is 100% accurate, the employee can easily refute the test and the employer is required to administer another or take it to court where the court will implement a 100% verifiable chromatography test to determine exact presence of drugs. Either way, that comes down to the $$ (the reason urinalysis are implemented over blood tests! - it is cheaper for the company to purchase the dip sticks over wasting time with a blood draw, submitting it to a lab and interpreting the results)

Why not honor the employees request.. (who likely submitted a pre-employment drug test, that technically ruled out any blatant substance abuse issue in the first place)... to submit a blood sample instead of a urinalysis?

Also, any either way an LEO on scene will request blood if there is serious bodily injury (hopefully not, this will raise a whole different set of issues)

Why should someone be stripped of their life's work (possibly DL license and professional license) for something they may have done weeks prior to the incident, that had absolutely no bearing on the outcome??

Let me qualify my rant before the "you choose your work over the weed" argument gains too much ground.. Substance abuse is serious problem, and there is a liability on behalf of the employer to be cautious about what their employees do. I have no doubt that cases of a medic being charged of negligent behavior due to impairment on the job exist... however....

Hear this: One drop of alcohol is more dangerous than any amount of cannabis will ever be. With the stress and commitment EMS expects of an individual, we all deserve the right to unwind and tame our spiritual and emotional self however we see fit. Many people find their way to the bottle to do this. Some, more so in the younger generations, have found cannabis to be the tool to their emotional and physical relaxation. We all can see the verifiable differences in the impact these two substances have on your health. Take combustion of cannabis and replace it with vaporization and you have eliminated any argument against the health implications of using cannabis.

Yet... an EMT can get hammered 4 days straight, wind up crashing the ambulance, piss clean and get back on the job the next day. But the EMT that uses cannabis off the clock, protected under legal state legislation, pisses hot they are done..possibly for their entire career.

 

[Veneficus]

Hear this: One drop of alcohol is more dangerous than any amount of cannabis will ever be. With the stress and commitment EMS expects of an individual, we all deserve the right to unwind and tame our spiritual and emotional self however we see fit. Many people find their way to the bottle to do this. Some, more so in the younger generations, have found cannabis to be the tool to their emotional and physical relaxation. We all can see the verifiable differences in the impact these two substances have on your health. Take combustion of cannabis and replace it with vaporization and you have eliminated any argument against the health implications of using cannabis.

Who told you this BS?

 

[DesertMedic66]

Why would an employee be cited for a DUI based on a positive urinalysis test for marijuana? I can't imagine that would hold up. No one urinalysis test is 100% accurate, the employee can easily refute the test and the employer is required to administer another or take it to court where the court will implement a 100% verifiable chromatography test to determine exact presence of drugs. Either way, that comes down to the $$ (the reason urinalysis are implemented over blood tests! - it is cheaper for the company to purchase the dip sticks over wasting time with a blood draw, submitting it to a lab and interpreting the results)

Why not honor the employees request.. (who likely submitted a pre-employment drug test, that technically ruled out any blatant substance abuse issue in the first place)... to submit a blood sample instead of a urinalysis?

Also, any either way an LEO on scene will request blood if there is serious bodily injury (hopefully not, this will raise a whole different set of issues)

Why should someone be stripped of their life's work (possibly DL license and professional license) for something they may have done weeks prior to the incident, that had absolutely no bearing on the outcome??

Let me qualify my rant before the "you choose your work over the weed" argument gains too much ground.. Substance abuse is serious problem, and there is a liability on behalf of the employer to be cautious about what their employees do. I have no doubt that cases of a medic being charged of negligent behavior due to impairment on the job exist... however....

Hear this: One drop of alcohol is more dangerous than any amount of cannabis will ever be. With the stress and commitment EMS expects of an individual, we all deserve the right to unwind and tame our spiritual and emotional self however we see fit. Many people find their way to the bottle to do this. Some, more so in the younger generations, have found cannabis to be the tool to their emotional and physical relaxation. We all can see the verifiable differences in the impact these two substances have on your health. Take combustion of cannabis and replace it with vaporization and you have eliminated any argument against the health implications of using cannabis.

Yet... an EMT can get hammered 4 days straight, wind up crashing the ambulance, piss clean and get back on the job the next day. But the EMT that uses cannabis off the clock, protected under legal state legislation, pisses hot they are done..possibly for their entire career.

If the employee is in an accident and the drug test comes back positive then there is grounds for DUI.

Why would an employee with nothing to hide refuse a urine test?

Don't know how many times it has to really be said. Alcohol is legal (when not on duty). THC is illegal by the federal government on or off duty.

EMS is considered a respectable job where we enter people's houses and are trusted not to steal along with giving narcotics to patients. Illegal drugs (THC) are still viewed as generally bad.

Why do THC drug dealers carry weapons if there is no harm?

And once again so I don't have to say it more times THC may be legal per the state you are in but it is illegal per federal law.

We all deserve the right to unwind as long as it is legal. Drinking is legal. Smoking cigarettes is legal (depending where you are). Smoking weed is illegal. Going down to the local supermarket and shooting the place up is illegal (I'm not comparing this to smoking the reefer but I'm sure someone in the world would find this as a way to unwind).

For EMS/Fire/Police you have to choose your job or smoking the Mary Jane (I know you didn't want to hear it but that is the reality).

 

[DesertMedic66]

Who told you this BS?

The google Internet search :rofl:

 

[BOSlife]

The google Internet search :rofl:

Once again this forum continues to disappoint with the egotistical level of thought and close minded, uninformed responses. Yes any company has the right to mandate an investigation involving their employees, you signed up for it. Yes anyone can google search and find out that alcohol is more dangerous than cannabis. No, our civil rights and liberties should not be violated just because "it is generally seen is bad" It's the principle that we enforce and shove a biased and incorrect perspective down people's throats that's bad. It's the unrealistic expectation that EMS workers are "above any societal standard". We know better than anyone that we are all just a bundle of chemicals and electricity working in a perfect balance. What also know is Alcoholism kills. There is not one documented case of illness or death related to cannabis, and I have done plenty of research to back this up. Comparing cannabis to the array of drugs out there is like picking a 3-letter word out of the dictionary and telling people "well this word isn't as complicated as that 15-letter word , but trust me its still just as hard to spell"

 

[Veneficus]

Once again this forum continues to disappoint with the egotistical level of thought and close minded, uninformed responses. Yes any company has the right to mandate an investigation involving their employees, you signed up for it. Yes anyone can google search and find out that alcohol is more dangerous than cannabis. No, our civil rights and liberties should not be violated just because "it is generally seen is bad" It's the principle that we enforce and shove a biased and incorrect perspective down people's throats that's bad. It's the unrealistic expectation that EMS workers are "above any societal standard". We know better than anyone that we are all just a bundle of chemicals and electricity working in a perfect balance. What also know is Alcoholism kills. There is not one documented case of illness or death related to cannabis, and I have done plenty of research to back this up. Comparing cannabis to the array of drugs out there is like picking a 3-letter word out of the dictionary and telling people "well this word isn't as complicated as that 15-letter word , but trust me its still just as hard to spell"

You are not all that good at research then.

Here are 751 studies linking marihuana to schizophrenia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=marihuana+schitzophrenia

here is another 12139 studies on the effect of cannabis

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=marihuana

That is just one source. Where do you get your information from?

 

[DesertMedic66]

Once again this forum continues to disappoint with the egotistical level of thought and close minded, uninformed responses. Yes any company has the right to mandate an investigation involving their employees, you signed up for it. Yes anyone can google search and find out that alcohol is more dangerous than cannabis. No, our civil rights and liberties should not be violated just because "it is generally seen is bad" It's the principle that we enforce and shove a biased and incorrect perspective down people's throats that's bad. It's the unrealistic expectation that EMS workers are "above any societal standard". We know better than anyone that we are all just a bundle of chemicals and electricity working in a perfect balance. What also know is Alcoholism kills. There is not one documented case of illness or death related to cannabis, and I have done plenty of research to back this up. Comparing cannabis to the array of drugs out there is like picking a 3-letter word out of the dictionary and telling people "well this word isn't as complicated as that 15-letter word , but trust me its still just as hard to spell"

Care to back all this up somehow?

A drug test is not violating (sp?) any of our civil liberties. It's well within a companies right to drug test it's employees at will (ever hear of random drug tests?)

I've been in EMS for 2 years now as an EMT and spent 5 year prior to that in the fire service. I have never once felt the need to get high to unwind. It is not an unreasonable explication to hold.

EMS/fire/police are held to a much higher standard then the rest of the public because we are viewed as professionals.

 

[JPINFV]

Once again this forum continues to disappoint

No, our civil rights and liberties should not be violated just because "it is generally seen is bad"

Which civil right is being violated by your company?

There is not one documented case of illness or death related to cannabis, and I have done plenty of research to back this up.

You mean... besides schizophrenia?

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/774128

 

[usalsfyre]

Could their be a legitimate case against the employer if they deny the EMT's request for a more accurate (albeit more expensive) test? Is testing and terminating employment for drug testing against 4th amendment rights of unreasonable search and seizure?

We're a private employer. 4th amendment doesn't apply.

Why not honor the employees request.. (who likely submitted a pre-employment drug test, that technically ruled out any blatant substance abuse issue in the first place)... to submit a blood sample instead of a urinalysis?

Because protecting your pot habit on our dime is not something anyone from the owner on down is particularly interested in.

Why should someone be stripped of their life's work (possibly DL license and professional license) for something they may have done weeks prior to the incident, that had absolutely no bearing on the outcome??

It's the rules of the game. There's plenty of professions where "a little pot is not a big deal". EMS is not one of them. Marijuana is illegal. Your use of it raises questions about your judgement.

Hear this: One drop of alcohol is more dangerous than any amount of cannabis will ever be. With the stress and commitment EMS expects of an individual, we all deserve the right to unwind and tame our spiritual and emotional self however we see fit. Many people find their way to the bottle to do this. Some, more so in the younger generations, have found cannabis to be the tool to their emotional and physical relaxation. We all can see the verifiable differences in the impact these two substances have on your health. Take combustion of cannabis and replace it with vaporization and you have eliminated any argument against the health implications of using cannabis.

I would stay off the legalize weed websites....

Quite honestly the whole thread raises issues regarding your maturity and thought process. Substance abuse to "tame our spiritual and emotional self" is a problem no matter what the substance is. Perhaps you should look at this issue before you condemn society at large.

 

[wanderingmedic]

You are not all that good at research then.

Here are 751 studies linking marihuana to schizophrenia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=marihuana+schitzophrenia

here is another 12139 studies on the effect of cannabis

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=marihuana

That is just one source. Where do you get your information from?

Thank you. Your post made my day.

 

[DrankTheKoolaid]

And the only reason that really matters. The Fed's came down with a mandate that any of it employees, contractors or contractors employees may not use medical Marijuana period or they risk losing ANY federal funding. In my area there was a guy with a California 215 card that simply worked as a mechanic who happened to have the contract to work on USFS vehicles and was told he would lose his contract if the person remained in his employ. Needless to say the guy was fired that day.

So even if something is 'legal' if the feds say it is still illegal, it is still illegal and users will be looked at and treated as criminals with all the things that go with it

 

[BOSlife]

Thank you. Your post made my day.

This is ridiculous. Cannabis a cause of schizophrenia, virtually unheard of in the real world. And doing a search on PubMed and getting 75789 results does not prove your point 75789 different ways.

I am not condemning society, quite the contrary actually. Everyone that has immediately called me out as a "pot-activist" and "to stay off the pro-marijuana sites" are honestly the ones who condemn society. I get this is a controversial issue and people are angered by the fact that as a profession, there is little to be desired in an individual who chooses to use a substance to "tame emotional thought and health" but do we judge out patients who are prescribed antidepressants and painkillers that they just can't seem to live without? Again more dangerous drugs, yet since a Dr. can prescribe and authorize them, we are ok with it. Again just like alcohol, I sense silence on that issue entirely.

 

[BOSlife]

You know, this began as a simple case where I presented the efficacy of using a blood test over urinalysis - to use blood over urine when proving someone's physical state at the time of an incident. Needless to say the maturity level in this forum can't handle any debate over marijuana, where people resort to ad hominem in an anonymous open forum. (Attacking me directly, where did I go wrong?) I think it's sad, be honest with your self before you assume that someone is bad or wrong before all the facts are considered.

I would advise forum administrators to remove this thread. It wasn't my intention to invoke debate over marijuana laws or the use of marijuana nor is it appropriate debate for this site. There are plenty of other sites I could have posted on to receive response to marijuana laws and use. it was simply taken by many that "this is my opinion that people should use the drug and accept it" which I qualified the contrary on several occasions.

 

[Bullets]

.... individual who chooses to use a substance to "tame emotional thought and health" but do we judge out patients who are prescribed antidepressants and painkillers that they just can't seem to live without? Again more dangerous drugs, yet since a Dr. can prescribe and authorize them, we are ok with it. Again just like alcohol, I sense silence on that issue entirely.

If your intent was to debate methods of drug testing then you failed to make that clear. You made it more about someones right to smoke pot. Your employer probably has a procedure outlined in it's substance abuse policy in regards to which test is used or available. Any accident with damage over $500 automatically triggers a drug test as that is the amount set by the state for a reportable accident

Tame emotional thought and health? That's the biggest crock I have ever heard. The majority of citizens manage to alleviate stress without resorting to crime

An employer has the right to set a policy regarding substance abuse and use amongst it's employees. If you don't like their policy then you don't have to work for them.

Alcohol is legal at every level, yet employers still prohibit employees from being under the influence when they arrive at work

prescription drugs are issued by a doctor to treat medical illnesses, yet employers also restrict employees from being under the influence of certain pharmaceuticals while at work

 

[BOSlife]

Before anyone posts another word. Go watch the Zeitgeist Movement documentaries by Peter Joseph. No, it has absolutely nothing to do with drug testing or EMS. Yet, it is the most factual and complete perspective of U.S society and culture to date.

 

[JPINFV]

Needless to say the maturity level in this forum can't handle any debate over marijuana, where people resort to ad hominem in an anonymous open forum.

 

[9D4]

I think your view of marijuana is a bit skewed, veneficus. Getting that many results, doesn't solely prove your point.
It may impact neuro function on schizophrenics, but according to this (unless I'm misinterpreting it [which is possible, I'm tired]) it is only a temporary worsening of the disease, not cannabis being the cause of the disease (which is what I interpreted your response as somewhat being)
http://www.cannabis-med.org/studies/ww_en_db_study_show.php?s_id=213&&search_pattern=ANXIOLYTIC
I can PM you to the site that I found the article on, if you wish.

Now, on the actual topic that the OP was talking about.
Personally, I see no alternative to UA's. As far as the law is concerned, THC is illegal and they obviously test for THC. As long as you test positive, its a DUI. You are still under the effects of the drug, because it's still in your system (not saying this is right, but from the legal aspect).
As many others have said, though, the public service world is not fond of illegal drug use, so, I see no place for it to be in their system in the first place.

Edit: I'm genuinely surprised at how many people seem to have such a view of degradation on cannabis users on here. I haven't encountered that so far in person in the EMS world (although my experiences are limited). I don't smoke, but I definitely don't look down on people that do. Personal choice, IMO.