EMT-B/BLS care is there a point??

[daedalus]

[

I would attempt to argue with you, but it very obvious you do not have the knowledge or understand emergency medicine nor cardiology yet. Not to be condensining but really who are you to determine what is needed or not? What medical expertise can you even base to make such opinon as such?

Just alike so many here believe their Basic Entry level couse automatically makes them eligible to know so much about emergency medicine, what is needed, what is not, on what & how things shoud be performed.. Wow ! A lot is offered in that 150 hour course.... So it must be the vast clinical exposure and in-depth praticum of clinical skills.. Oh.. What? You had how many clinicals?.. A week, two weeks... month.. a year? No? Oh, it must be all those areas you gained that knowledge in.. burn unit, surgery, pediatric ICU, CCU, Pysch hospitals.. No ? Wow! Yet, you are able to inform a higher licensed person that does have such, on what should and how it should occur? ... See the irony?

Yes such illness as Sinus Arrest (that occurs in Sick Sinus Syndrome) can be treated alike several hundred illnesses and injuries that can be performed and tx. in a Wal-Mart, a pasture, an EMS Unit, or that 3 million dollar CCU. Medicine is medicine. The same treatment is given for that Sick Sinus/ Arrest be it in the field, ER or CCU. External pacing takes about 30 seconds.. I use the same pads in the field, ER, ICU, CCU. Again the same for many things.

What is the rush to get to a hospital? I do the same thing. Are you aware your chances of living from a code is better outside a hospital than inside one? .. The only reason people rush back to a hospital is for two reasons.. they don't know what to do.... or they know there is nothing else they can do....

Seriously, what authority does a Basic EMT even have to base an opinion on what ALS is, how it is performed? Remember in medicine there is no such thing. ALS = Medical Care with medicine, treatments & medical interventions. So, I ask are you able to be more informed than those with more education and those that have a higher licensed? You can determine what is appropriate care? Wow! That Basic EMT course must be one heck of a course.. And yet, the text is written at sixth grade level and all of the information is contained in one paper back book.

I have not read where anyone called a basic any names, or even belittled except when they have made unrealistic even ignorant or potential dangerous opinions.

Does anyone else notice that those that have a higher education, more experience and higher medical license usually have the same focus? Again, I use the analogy of what would one think of a nurse aide attempting to tell a RN with a DnSc or Nursing Professor all about nursing or what is appropriate nursing interventions. One would think it would be it be strange and not realistic.... the same could be said here and the EMS profession.

Just FYI there are courses that teach C-Spine immobilization, delivering babies, even administering ASA.... it's called Basic First-Aid. Something ARC has been doing for decades.

R/r 911

Make no mistake Rid, I do not claim medical knowledge or authority from my Basic class. My Basic class was just that, Basic. What I am saying is that I have met some EMTs here that know a hell of a lot, and do a fantastic job in assessing their patients. I understand the need for ALS, and more to the point, actually riding out on 911 calls has caused me to change my opinion that a paramedic should always be in charge of patient care. Some, if not most, patients really don't need it (after checking out the patient, the paramedics frequently BLS the patient and get back into their squad and leave). Its a waste of ALS resources for the surrounding community. And I know more cardiology than you might think I do. And most of my knowledge comes from the traditional classroom. Try me.

 

[Alexakat]

LOL you would spend more time on generals than you would the whole damn program.

Which would be a good thing!

In a traditional BA or BS program, you take all the generals before you take the courses specific to your major anyway! EMS professionals could greatly benefit from courses like technical writing, interpersonal communication, psychology, biology/chemistry, a foreign language (all usually considered "general education" requirements).

Then, the junior & senior year - A&P, pharmacology, pathophysiology, clinicals, ride time, etc.

And it would certainly help "professionalize" the profession!

 

[mikeylikesit]

Which would be a good thing!

In a traditional BA or BS program, you take all the generals before you take the courses specific to your major anyway! EMS professionals could greatly benefit from courses like technical writing, interpersonal communication, psychology, biology/chemistry, a foreign language (all usually considered "general education" requirements).

Then, the junior & senior year - A&P, pharmacology, pathophysiology, clinicals, ride time, etc.

And it would certainly help "professionalize" the profession!

Indeed it would. But like said most people can go through the 10 credit hour course and then take 50 credit hours of generals. By the time I was done with my medic schooling I had about 145 Credit hours...56 of which were didactic. I learned a ton of stuff from taking my generals that made me an overall better medic than most medics I know who just got the CERT.

 

[VentMedic]

I was reply to another thread and referenced the Phlebotomy certification which at the national level, it is about 150 hours.

This program popped up on a quick web search. I also did a few more searches with similar results in other parts of the country.

https://www.terra.edu/PDFs/Lcc/Phlebotomy_Certificate_info_sheet_-_Semesters_12-17-07.pdf

EMT-Bs, notice the pre and co-requisites to do venipuncture as a phlebotomist.

 

[mycrofft]

Howdy JPIN et al

I understand your question (although for things to change, literally the status quo would shift, by definition, no?
1. Field emergency medical workers need not only to have a professional organization but also a recognized labor organization. As weak as nursing unions are (as opposed to, say, the UAW), I am thankful for mine daily when I see how unorganized healthcare workers are treated.
2. I also think that there will always be a steady stream of young enthusiasts, winnowing down to a thinner stream of older workers who have found a niche, to keep up with demand as long as standards are kept low and educational requirements for paid companies as low.
3. Too damned many artificial types of field emergency medical workers. RN-dom has suffered because of the existence of certificate and degree nurses, field EMS workers have many more than that.
4. And quit kicking each other in the shins, will ya?
Sheesh!....

 

[daedalus]

I was reply to another thread and referenced the Phlebotomy certification which at the national level, it is about 150 hours.

This program popped up on a quick web search. I also did a few more searches with similar results in other parts of the country.

https://www.terra.edu/PDFs/Lcc/Phlebotomy_Certificate_info_sheet_-_Semesters_12-17-07.pdf

EMT-Bs, notice the pre and co-requisites to do venipuncture as a phlebotomist.

a few hours of anatomy? two hours of first aid? nice. B)

 

[mikeylikesit]

a few hours of anatomy? two hours of first aid? nice. B)

Credit hours! full semesters.

 

[Jon]

I think... scratch that.. I HOPE he's joking!

 

[VentMedic]

a few hours of anatomy? two hours of first aid? nice. B)

Credit hours! full semesters.

Exactly!

Look again daedalus. That is almost two full semesters of college credits not the "hours" that EMS is unfortunately so familiar with.

 

[Ridryder911]

If it was two full semesters that is usually one year.. and to think some Basics complain of a two to three week course...


We need to clarify for those that not aware, college hours is NOT the same as clock hours...

R/r 911

 

[daedalus]

In my state a few weeks course at an adult school is all one needs for a Phlebotomy card. I was not aware of "credit hours", my college uses "units", usually correlates to the number of hours each class contains.

 

[daedalus]

"California Department of Health Services, Division of Laboratory Science, approved 42-hour program"

And the pre reqs?
"Prerequisites: 18 years or older; speak, read, write English."

From the Phlebotomist class description, Simi Valley Adult School. http://www.simi.tec.ca.us/files/medprog.htm

Hardly comparable to a good EMT class

 

[VentMedic]

"California Department of Health Services, Division of Laboratory Science, approved 42-hour program"

And the pre reqs?
"Prerequisites: 18 years or older; speak, read, write English."

From the Phlebotomist class description, Simi Valley Adult School. http://www.simi.tec.ca.us/files/medprog.htm

Hardly comparable to a good EMT class

You are still trying to go for the lesser education by the numbers. Your data is referring to yet another entry level into the world of phlebotomy. Most phlebotomists move on past the "Limited" cert. If not, that would be like staying at the First Responder level in EMS.

Doing the math on this description of the program from the school you quoted, there are almost 42 hours even if the class met only 2 hours/week. I would say that is not the case.

The course consists of a Basic 10-week class, an Advanced 7-week class and a two-week unpaid externship.

Did you also miss the 1040 hours of on the job experience in the California statutes when you did your research for phlebotomy?

https://secure.cps.ca.gov/cltreg/Phlebotomy_Requirements.pdf


The 18 y/o and English speaking requirements are often the same prerequisites to enter many other educational programs in the United States.

BTW, the Phlebotomy Cert in California is a state certification and not the usual county to county mess for EMTs in that state.

 

[Ridryder911]

In my state a few weeks course at an adult school is all one needs for a Phlebotomy card. I was not aware of "credit hours", my college uses "units", usually correlates to the number of hours each class contains.

One better be used to college hours.. those are what are transferable. Sorry, clock hours usually does not represent upper level or formal education.

Let's just face it. EMS is one of if not the easiest profession to enter and get through to get a job in.

R/r 911

 

[JPINFV]

In my state a few weeks course at an adult school is all one needs for a Phlebotomy card. I was not aware of "credit hours", my college uses "units", usually correlates to the number of hours each class contains.

By correlates, do you mean correlates like a 4 unit class meets for 4 hours a week (at my undergrad, this generally meant 3 hours of lecture and 1 hour of discussion)?

 

[daedalus]

By correlates, do you mean correlates like a 4 unit class meets for 4 hours a week (at my undergrad, this generally meant 3 hours of lecture and 1 hour of discussion)?

Exactly, as my next Chem is 6 units I believe, 4 lecture and 2 laboratory, and is part of the "IGETC" which mandates transferability.

Vent, I am not a supporter of hours of education. I am a supporter of college degrees. I do not contest the idea that I am under educated.

 

[VentMedic]

College units and credit hours are essentially the same.

One credit hour of college work is approximately three hours of lecture, study or laboratory work per week throughout a term of 16 weeks. Where a term is more or less than 16 weeks, more or less than one credit hour shall be allowed in the same ratio that the length of the term is to 16 weeks.

Each unit of credit (credit hour) requires approximately 48 hours of student learning time. As a matter of standard higher education practice, in traditional academic disciplines (such as English, history, mathematics, etc.), it is expected that one third of these hours will occur in the classroom (lecture), and two-thirds of them will occur outside the classroom ("study" or homework). Thus, for a one unit academic course, the following hours would normally be expected:

16 hours of classroom time
32 hours of homework
48 hours total student learning time

Many traditional academic courses award three units. The number of hours expected for such a course would be:

48 hours of classroom time
96 hours of homework
144 hours total student learning time

In the California Community College system, the number of hours per unit is often expressed as slightly higher than the figures I mentioned above. That is because, although the controlling regulation describes a 16-week semester, California finance laws require that California's semesters average 17.5 weeks rather than 16.

Now, does anyone see why the degree system of learning is better designed for academic (and training) achievement than the "hours" system? When one argues before legislators the amount of time a professional has spent in preparation for their profession, there is a measurable standard in the education world.

Even if the EMS instructor says you should put in 3 hours of study for every hour of classroom, that still may not translate accurately since many of the hours listed in EMS are actual contact clinical hours. Whereas, the units (credits) for clinic hours can be broken down in a method that still reflects hands-on and study time to compare with other similar programs.

 

[mikeylikesit]

Let's just face it. EMS is one of if not the easiest profession to enter and get through to get a job in.

R/r 911

Enter yes....get a job in as a basic.....hahaha. ^_^Like you always say rid when you're a dime or dozen type it is inherently more difficult to land a job in small areas anyways.

 

[Lyss]

I don't know where most of you are from, but here BLS is essential. I work with both an ALS and BLS crew. And yes, its quite safe to say that I have made a difference in several people's lives. Perhaps at times just as an extra pair of hands, but hey, it still counts and I've got the awards to prove it. Whether the medics like to acknowledge it or not (I don't think most of them were hugged enough as children) we all make a difference. Thats right, each and every one of us.

When working for the BLS station (yes, its paid) I rarely call for a medic. We only have one for the entire mountain-top area, and they're generally in a fly car. There's not much I can't handle, MVAs, environmental issues, etc., and don't feel it necessary to take a medic out of service. I've never had any complaints.

I'm quite happy being a BLS provider. Would I like to upgrade? Some day, but right now I'm focused on finishing college and getting my Master's. Medic school is expensive, and I just don't have the time. Also I'm in love with my job, no where near burned out, and don't really feel like becoming a medic and having to associate day after day with people who have their heads permanently lodged in their asses.

So, even if at times we are just an extra pair of hands, we do help out and we do matter. Just be thankful for those extra hands at times. Because when we're gone, you'll be *****ing because we're not there.

 

[Free-B-EMT]

Fuel for the Fire

There seems to be quite a few people with very strong and varying opinions on this subject. There was an independent study carried out in Canada over a 3 year period that addressed the patient's survivability when treated ALS vs. BLS in a prehospital setting. Try googleing OPALS Major Trauma Study to read the results. A lot of people may be surprised. You can also take the link below to see a full write up.

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/178/9/1141