EMS workers allowed to carry weapons...

[truetiger]

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-4277458.html

Ryan's crew members were pinned behind the fire truck until more help could arrive. One of the initial responding officers was also wounded. They were helpless until more officers arrived.

 

[Doczilla]

CQI was a point of reference.

Just seems people get worked up over this.

People enthusiastically argue this, and it just seems a little off. And most of the people who are the biggest advocates (from who I've spoken to in person) of EMT's and paramedics carrying firearms on duty have never exchanged rounds with a hostile person.

Careful what you wish for.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Those examples are very controlled environments. The scenes we encounter every day are anything but controlled.

Yes because shootings never happen at schools.... Or courthouses.... (I'm not even gonna bother linking to the school shootings)

 

[DrParasite]

Should the cashier at McDonalds be packing a 1911 .45 on his waist?

Some crazy people go through McDonalds on a daily basis...

wellllllll, if the cashier at McD's has a .45 on his waist, and the Burger King has a no fire arms policy on premises policy that is strictly enforced, which restaurant are you going to rob at gun point?

 

[truetiger]

Going to a school or court house is different then going to some address way out in the county at 0200. The court house has armed officers there anyway.

 

[DrParasite]

So then elementary school teachers should be allowed to carry on duty because even when they are at work they need to be able to defend themselves the same as the general public.

ehhh, sure, why not? as long as it's concealed, and no one knows you are armed, go nuts. but once they find out, expect consequences. The Pizza delivery guy is a great example of that; lost his job, but is alive.... I'd be ok with that, as well as file a massive lawsuit against my employer for failing to protect me from the armed robber.

I should be able to carry inside a federal courthouse or jail/prison because I should be able to defend myself as a normal citizen correct?

absolutely not. there are uniformed, armed personnel at the courthouses. everyone that enters is screened to ensure they are not armed. it's a controlled environment. a jail or prison? heck, even the on duty officers and on duty corrections officers aren't permitted to have weapons, for the same reason, it's a secure environment: NO ONE is allowed to have a firearm. If somehow you lose it or have it taken away from you, there are as many dead officers as there are bullets in the gun. Why should you be able to endanger all their lives by bringing a loaded weapon in?

Flight attendants should be able to carry because being on duty should not prevent them from carrying. I can go on and on.

I believe pilots were allowed to carry. but it's the same concept, it's a secure facility, everyone is checked for weapons before boarding.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-4277458.html

Ryan's crew members were pinned behind the fire truck until more help could arrive. One of the initial responding officers was also wounded. They were helpless until more officers arrived.

hate to say it, but he could have had an M-16, a grenade launcher, and a 9mm, and he would still be dead. As for his crew,they were out in the open, and able to seek cover. not like they were inside a burning buildling, with a hose line, and started to take on hostile fire, or had a fire armed pulled on them.

People enthusiastically argue this, and it just seems a little off. And most of the people who are the biggest advocates (from who I've spoken to in person) of EMT's and paramedics carrying firearms on duty have never exchanged rounds with a hostile person.

and I, along with probably everyone on here, would be very happy to never exchange rounds with a hostile person. on duty or off.

Yes because shootings never happen at schools.... Or courthouses.... (I'm not even gonna bother linking to the school shootings)

the question isn't do shootings happen... because if a crazy person wants to go on a shooting spree in a court house, all he needs to do is walk in, and start shooting before the check point. or shoot the officer doing the checking, and walk in. even if EVERYONE was armed and shot back, the shooter could still shoot people.

 

[JPINFV]

hate to say it, but he could have had an M-16, a grenade launcher, and a 9mm, and he would still be dead. As for his crew,they were out in the open, and able to seek cover. not like they were inside a burning buildling, with a hose line, and started to take on hostile fire, or had a fire armed pulled on them

...

the question isn't do shootings happen... because if a crazy person wants to go on a shooting spree in a court house, all he needs to do is walk in, and start shooting before the check point. or shoot the officer doing the checking, and walk in. even if EVERYONE was armed and shot back, the shooter could still shoot people.

Whereas EMS can use our magic spidey sense to shoot people preemptively?

 

[DrParasite]

Whereas EMS can use our magic spidey sense to shoot people preemptively?

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, but thanks for playing

 

[leoemt]

how many EMTs want to shoot someone? In fact, I think ANY EMT who wants to shoot someone should have their EMT revoked, and sent to the military.

and your wrong, cops are given the tools to protect themselves FROM the public, and anyone who might cause them harm. for example, guy with a gun is shooting up a store, a cop is sent to stop him. the cop must stop him, and if his life in in danger, he can shoot the guy, who is the public in this example. They are given those tools to mitigate the situation to ensure they go home with at little damage to them as possible. As a LEO, they can enter scenes using their higher level of training. As an armed EMT, if i was armed, I would want to be able to leave an unsafe scene that I was trapped in so PD could enter and secure it, while suffering as little damage to myself and my partner as I could. And just so we are clear, I am still not in favor of armed EMTs, not am i against it.
I must respectfully disagree. I know quite a few officers (either PD or Corrections) who worked in not so nice areas, and carried concealed. usually in an ankle holster, from what I was told. With 100% confidence, I can say none of them were going to pull their gun unless they or their crew were in imminent danger, and that danger was caused by a bad guy recognizing them from their FT job and now thinking they were a soft target and wanted to cause them harm. If they were to draw, they might be fired, but they would be alive. Remember, if no one knows you have a weapon, than you are doing it right.

I am wrong? I have spent years as a cop I got the experience to back me up. The tools we are given are to protect the public, not to protect us from the public. We are the people that get called when the crap hits the fan. It is up to us to mitigate the situation and resolve it according to the law. Ever hear of a Use of Force Continuum? Spend some time as a sworn police officer then come talk to me. I got friends who are medics but that doesn't make me a medic.

Carrying concealed doesn't mean it is "invisible". Yes it is out of sight but that doesn't mean it still can't be spotted. I have worn every holster imaginable and depending on body position the weapon can become visible. I have had ankle holsters get revealed when I kneel, I have had hip holsters "print" when I bend over and I have had shoulder holsters show when I open my jacket. Yes you can keep them hidden 99% of the time, but anyone who says otherwise is lying or ignorant.

You are inches away from a patient when treating them. Do you really want a firearm that close to a patient? How can you protect the firearm from being taken when your tied up with patient care?

There is a rule we use in law enforcement: There is a gun on EVERY CALL and you are the source of that gun. Protect it, Protect yourself, protect the public. Don't lose your gun."

We use Level III holsters on duty (Level II is state minimum). Not many manufacturers make concealable level II or III holsters.

Get some experience using a firearm for your profession and being LEGALLY responsible for it and then come talk to me. Being a CCW doesn't count.

There are distinct legal differences between being a CCW holder and carrying a weapon on duty for your job.

 

[truetiger]

It wouldn't be "carrying a weapon on duty FOR your job." It's just being able to have the same level of personal protection available to civilians. As a LEO you are called as part of your job to disarm dangerous situations. Your weapon is one of many tools to accomplish this. As a paramedic, it is not my job, nor would I ever make it my job to do the job of a LEO. However, if in the performance of my job I find myself in a situation in which I believe my life is in immediate danger, why should I not be able to defend myself the same way I could if I was off duty?

 

[Shishkabob]

I am wrong? I have spent years as a cop I got the experience to back me up. The tools we are given are to protect the public, not to protect us from the public.

Actually yes, you are wrong, and I have several decisions by the US Supreme Court to "back me up".

Police are under no obligation to protect any private citizen. The job of a police officer is to investigate a crime that has been committed and to punish those who did it, all after the fact. There is no Minority Report going on... there is always a crime that has already been committed before an arrest is made. Always.

The fact that PD has weapons has to do with the fact about the people they deal with and arrest, and protecting themselves from those people.


The fact that society is safer for the police doing so does not change that the police are not required, nor there, to protect society from an active dangerous criminal. And that's been established through judicial law.

You are inches away from a patient when treating them. Do you really want a firearm that close to a patient? How can you protect the firearm from being taken when your tied up with patient care?

The same exact way you protect it when a LEO is interacting with the general public. Anyone touches my firearm has just given me every single legal and ethical reason to do anything from poke them to beat the snot out of them to outright shoot them because my life is now in danger.

There are distinct legal differences between being a CCW holder and carrying a weapon on duty for your job.

Yup, but I point you back to the "Correct, EMS isn't LE, however we don't have the firearm to be LE, we have it to protect our lives, the sole and only reason to have a CCW/CHL"

 

[Sandog]

If your so fearful for your safety while working on the job that you think you need a gun, then perhaps a career change is in order, like book keeping. Guns have no place in EMS, these threads are just a redundant waste of bandwidth.

 

[Shishkabob]

If your so fearful for your safety while working on the job that you think you need a gun, then perhaps a career change is in order, like book keeping. Guns have no place in EMS, these threads are just a redundant waste of bandwidth.

So, should we ban gun ownership nationwide then? I mean, if you are so fearful for your safety at home, you should just move, right?


Why are you against the 2nd amendment?

 

[Sandog]

First off, I have nothing against the second amendment, but gun toting people like you have distorted its original intent. I served my country in the 70's and packed around a M-14.

If you want a gun in your home, then more power to you, but guns do not belong on an ambulance.

EMS is about healing, not killing. Just goes against what EMS is all about.

 

[Shishkabob]

First off, I have nothing against the second amendment, but gun toting people like you have distorted its original intent. I served my country in the 70's and packed around a M-14.

The amendment states clearly keep AND bear arms.

I've not distorted its intent. Whatever I say has no bearing on the current law. The US Supreme Court, through multiple decisions, has brought about its intent and defining it much more clearly. They have states that militia does not mean a state sanctioned group, and that people means person.


So yes, you are against the 2nd amendment if you are against 'gun toting', as that is the exact meaning and purpose of it.

EMS is about healing, not killing. Just goes against what EMS is all about.

First rule about scene safety is I'm going home after the shift is done. Me carrying is not about killing, it's about not letting someone else kill me.

 

[Bullets]

First off, I have nothing against the second amendment, but gun toting people like you have distorted its original intent. I served my country in the 70's and packed around a M-14.

If you want a gun in your home, then more power to you, but guns do not belong on an ambulance.

EMS is about healing, not killing. Just goes against what EMS is all about.

Again, why do people believe that allowing EMTs/MICUs to continue to carry in accordance with their CCW permit = HIGH FLOW LEAD TO THE HEAD


EMS is about providing medical care outside the hospital setting in a safe and efficient manner. I am the most important person on scene. I dont care about anyone else while my life is at risk and i cant mitigate that risk. Everything we do, our training and education is designed to mitigate risk we expose ourselves to during our daily activity, be it rescue or medicine, exposure, haz mat, cbrne, ect.

A few weeks of training during the police academy, which varies greatly from state to state, does not make one a marksman, it makes someone competent. Following graduation, shooting to qualify twice a year does not reinforce the skills necessary to effectively utilize the most dangerous tool on your belt.

Heavy Rescue trucks bring hydraulically powered steel slicing machines and are operated inches from a patient. We train once a month in addition to the calls we get. Medics spend a year in school to inject up to 40 different dangerous drugs that intentionally stop the heart and have all manner of negative side effect and use these skills on a regular basis. Yet we allow cops to openly carry one tool after two weeks of instruction and a 30 mintute qualifier twice a year...

 

[medicsb]

These horse-beatings can go on forever, but guns will never save the lives of EMSers or anyone else on the job. The number of EMSers murdered on the job is far far far less than those that die from heart attacks or MVCs.

Just because the 2nd amendment exists doesn't mean you can carry anywhere, anytime. We have the first amendment, but it is pretty clear that you can't go free-speeching where-ever you want whenever you want. This is reasonable to an extent. I think it is perfectly reasonable for EMSers to be not allowed to carry guns.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Why are you against the 2nd amendment?

Why do you keep saying that everyone who doesn't agree with you is against the 2nd amendment? Just because we believe guns have no role in EMS has nothing at all to do with us possibily being against the amendment. But you keep insisting and insisting.

 

[Shishkabob]

Why do you keep saying that everyone who doesn't agree with you is against the 2nd amendment? Just because we believe guns have no role in EMS has nothing at all to do with us possibily being against the amendment. But you keep insisting and insisting.

It is a valid question to a valid position because none of you have argued differently. You say you're for the 2nd, which is to keep and bear, and while some of you might be for bearing outside of work, you don't believe someone should in an ambulance. No one has stated as to why yet that doesn't fall back on fear-mongering for unrealistic fears. That seems counter-intuitive to being "for" something, does it not?

If someone has gone through the process of getting a CHL/CCW, give me a legitimate reason why they should not be able to carry while at work in an ambulance to protect themselves, in the rare, but very real, chance that their life could be in danger, either on a call, or sitting on the side of the road hanging out.


We've already proven there will be no bloodbaths. We've proven that they are purely for self defense and not to enforce laws like LEOs. We've proven that the vast majority of people that own them are not just going to go ape-sh and blast someone away for looking at them wrong. And we've proven that they have actually saved lives.


So I've yet to see a reason why they should not be allowed in places that aren't banned federally. Show me.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for EMSers to be not allowed to carry guns.

Why? Why is it reasonable? Why is it reasonable for me to be otherwise defenseless against someone that wants to do me harm simply because I put a uniform on?


I'd argue it's quite reasonable to conceal in to a school because that is one of the most likely places to actually be when a mass shooting occurs. Do you not agree? If not, why?

 

[DesertMedic66]

It is a valid question to a valid position because none of you have argued differently. You say you're for the 2nd, which is to keep and bear, and while some of you might be for bearing outside of work, you don't believe someone should in an ambulance. No one has stated as to why yet that doesn't fall back on fear-mongering for unrealistic fears. That seems counter-intuitive to being "for" something, does it not?

If someone has gone through the process of getting a CHL/CCW, give me a legitimate reason why they should not be able to carry while at work in an ambulance to protect themselves, in the rare, but very real, chance that their life could be in danger, either on a call, or sitting on the side of the road hanging out.


We've already proven there will be no bloodbaths. We've proven that they are purely for self defense and not to enforce laws like LEOs. We've proven that the vast majority of people that own them are not just going to go ape-sh and blast someone away for looking at them wrong. And we've proven that they have actually saved lives.

We have stated reasons why carrying a weapon in the back of an ambulance is not a good idea (heck in my area PD has to remove their gun in order to ride with us). Small places and guns don't exactly mix. (now is when you go into the argument of "most shootings happen at under 5 feet". So then instead of a gun why not a taser? It can be used both at a distance and direct contact and is considered non-lethal).

Unrealistic fears? So no one has ever been disarmed and shot with their own weapon? No one has ever had an accidental discharge of a weapon? No one has ever tried to pull a gun off an officers belt? (FYI all those have happened).

If you have to have a CWP CCP in order to carry on the job what happens to the Medics and EMTs who are under 21 and can not get one? Hope they can run fast and hide good? How are we supposed to conceal the weapon when we have to wear 8inch boots and a tucked in uniform?

Your for the second amendment but yet your fine with no being able to bear arms where the federal government says you can't? Well that confusing. You should want to bear arms everywhere you go no matter what. If I visit the president I should have the right to bear arms because it is in the second amendment to bear arms.