EMS workers allowed to carry weapons...

[DesertMedic66]

http://www.examiner.com/article/virginia-moves-to-allow-ambulance-crews-to-carry-guns?cid=rss

Well this sure will be interesting :blink:

 

[shfd739]

I'd like to think most services and agencies won't allow it.

The potential liability is not worth it.

 

[DrParasite]

oddly enough, in a state like Texas where everyone has a gun (yes, I'm stereotyping, including gardeners if you ever saw the movie miss congeniality), it would appear that only people on the ambulance are not permitted to have guns.

A great quote from the article supporting armed EMTs, “Ambulance crews often arrive at crime scenes before the police have things in hand,” says Van Cleave. “They are truly first responders, so why disarm them?,” he adds."

So if every civilian can carry a gun, and we know the EMTs don't, who will be the easy target? If you were a bad guy, would you attack the armed civilian, or the ambulance people who aren't allowed to carry guns?

 

[Bullets]

This should be merged with a similar thread in the news

Also, AD's thoughts

http://ambulancedriverfiles.com/2012/09/13/virginia-emts-granted-right-to-carry/

 

[Prudy]

I see it as a big mistake to carry a gun in ambulance. If you are first at the place before the police, still people now that you are unarmed and you are there to cure and help. And you are not potential danger for them...
Also if you will be attacked by some homeless or junkie, I dont think that is good to aim an weapon. I am ok with paralyzers, peppers sprays etc... not guns...

(my opinion)

 

[Doczilla]

Look at the "force continuum" or "escalation of force" that some local and federal law enforcement agencies use.

How much does a LEO have to go through before and after using lethal force?

How much training would it take to make a EMS provider, who's entire existance in a scene relies in law enforcement, able to function independently (for however small a time) in a violent scene?

It's one thing for an off duty ANYONE to carry and defend themselves , its entirely another for someone wearing a uniform. If you think the CQI process is bad for an RSI,just think about the first time someone gets a few rounds pumped in them because some minimally trained EMT's got jazzed up at an unsecured scene.

Having a weapon does not "secure the scene". Giving EMS workers firearms isn't a solution for inadequate law enforcement response time.

Barging in somewhere with a stretcher and "shooting the bad guy" is a pipe dream.

 

[Bullets]

And once again, besides speculation, can you show me some evidence that EMTs WHO ALREADY POSSESS VALID CCW PERMITS are going to start blasting patients the first time they get a little upset? Perhaps in a place that didnt have CCW laws and now does? Surely if a place didnt allow carry permits for the general populace and then did, you would see a rise in shootings, based on the logic espoused by many here...

If i have satisfied my state governments requirements to carry a concealed firearm every day in public when i am shopping for food, getting gas, going to the dry cleaners, ect. why do i have to then give up that right when i go to work?

On one hand the state is saying we trust you to carry a firearm, in some states OPENLY, but then they say, when you wear a uniform, we dont trust you

 

[Doczilla]

Trust me, I'm all about guns. I just think people underestimate what it takes to be able to use lethal force correctly. I'm not risk adverse at all.

Carrying weapons in an ambulance is a fantasy. Unless you're in robot-cop area Detroit.

 

[DrParasite]

How much training would it take to make a EMS provider, who's entire existance in a scene relies in law enforcement, able to function independently (for however small a time) in a violent scene?

A very good question.... Of course, you are assuming law enforcement is always on scenes with EMS, when in many places, especially the urban areas, you get a LEO only on certain calls, and depending on the LEO call volume (which is always more than EMS's, sometimes as much as 10x as many calls), you can get EMS on scene before LEO, with no ETA for police.

It's one thing for an off duty ANYONE to carry and defend themselves , its entirely another for someone wearing a uniform. If you think the CQI process is bad for an RSI,just think about the first time someone gets a few rounds pumped in them because some minimally trained EMT's got jazzed up at an unsecured scene.

why???? and why is the CQI a problem?

Are you any more hotheaded or less competent the moment you put on a uniform? or do you have a better chance of being found in one of these bad situations when you are sent into one?

I agree, the internal oversight will be intense, as it should be. when a cop shoots someone, what happens? does his supervisor pat him on the back, say "good job, here is your gun we will see you at work tomorrow!"? Or does internal affairs investigate, the prosecutor investigate, he goes to a psychiatrist to make sure his brain is ok, and only after they all agree that he acted appropriately, is he told "good job, here is your gun back, we will see you at work tomorrow." why should it be any different in the EMS world?

 

[Shishkabob]

The potential liability is not worth it.

There is no liability, because the agency is not the one arming them.


There simply is no logical reason why any responsible citizen, at anytime, in an ambulance or otherwise, should not have the ability to be armed.




My life is a lot more likely to be in danger outside my house than inside, so why should I be less able to protect myself outside?


As for "OMG a hothead EMT is going to start blasting!", several studies (One from University of Chicago, another from Newsweek) have shown that an innocent person is more likely to be shot by a police officer than an armed citizen (11% by PD, 2% by citizens, ABC News, July 2001)



As for "people won't trust you when armed": Concealed means concealed. No one will know I have a gun on me until it has to come in to play to protect myself (and less than 10% of times a gun is drawn in self defense are shots actually fired). Correct, we aren't law enforcement. The gun isn't there to enforce any other law than stopping attempted murder, sexual assault, robbery or other violent felonies against myself.



And, above all else, it's my Constitutional right. To say I shouldn't means nothing more than you disagree with the 2nd amendment.

 

[leoemt]

I am a CCW holder and a former cop and I can say I don't agree with this.

As a cop we are given tools to protect the public. Some of those tools are less lethal others are lethal. Cops don't want to shoot anyone and go through lots of training. Ever hear of the FATS simulator?

The other problem is the gun itself. How are you going to secure the gun? Even if it is concealed, when you are bent over the patient how are you going to keep it secured. It is not hard to spot a concealed handgun.

There are too many problems that I can see happening. EMS needs to do something but guns aren't the answer. Personally, I think verbal judo training would be appropriate.

 

[DesertMedic66]

As for "people won't trust you when armed": Concealed means concealed. No one will know I have a gun on me until it has to come in to play to protect myself (and less than 10% of times a gun is drawn in self defense are shots actually fired). Correct, we aren't law enforcement. The gun isn't there to enforce any other law than stopping attempted murder, sexual assault, robbery or other violent felonies against myself.

One question here. Where are we supposed to conceal the gun at? At my company (as well as many others) we have to wear a tucked in uniform shirt. Same style as PD just a different color.

 

[Shishkabob]

As a cop we are given tools to protect the public. Some of those tools are less lethal others are lethal. Cops don't want to shoot anyone and go through lots of training. Ever hear of the FATS simulator?

That's just a load of bull. Many police agencies nationally are feeling the crunch as well, and many of them don't do any real training past the academy, save for annual qualifications. The average police officer rarely trains with their handgun beyond the requirements (look at NYPD, one of the biggest police agencies in the world, involved in shootings fairly often, and they are also one of the most poorly trained in handgun usage).


On top of that, in some states (like here in Texas), CCW/CHL shooting training requirements are on par to that of required by the LEO licensing agency.

The other problem is the gun itself. How are you going to secure the gun? Even if it is concealed, when you are bent over the patient how are you going to keep it secured. It is not hard to spot a concealed handgun.

There are more ways to conceal a handgun than the 4 o'clock position on someones waist, and knowing a lot of EMS personnel, they have more than enough adipose tissue to help.

Again, concealed means concealed. If you're doing it right, no one will know but you.

There are too many problems that I can see happening. EMS needs to do something but guns aren't the answer. Personally, I think verbal judo training would be appropriate.

Yes, verbal judo should be included in training, but c'mon, anyone who believes talking and running will ALWAYS keep you safe are acting naiive. Fact is, there are irrational people who can run faster than you.

One question here. Where are we supposed to conceal the gun at? At my company (as well as many others) we have to wear a tucked in uniform shirt. Same style as PD just a different color.

Depends on the person. Different styles work for different people. Heck, look up the "SmartCarry" which goes in your crotch region... hopefully you don't have patients and unknown bystanders feeling you up there on a daily basis.

 

[DrParasite]

As a cop we are given tools to protect the public. Some of those tools are less lethal others are lethal. Cops don't want to shoot anyone and go through lots of training. Ever hear of the FATS simulator?

how many EMTs want to shoot someone? In fact, I think ANY EMT who wants to shoot someone should have their EMT revoked, and sent to the military.

and your wrong, cops are given the tools to protect themselves FROM the public, and anyone who might cause them harm. for example, guy with a gun is shooting up a store, a cop is sent to stop him. the cop must stop him, and if his life in in danger, he can shoot the guy, who is the public in this example. They are given those tools to mitigate the situation to ensure they go home with at little damage to them as possible. As a LEO, they can enter scenes using their higher level of training. As an armed EMT, if i was armed, I would want to be able to leave an unsafe scene that I was trapped in so PD could enter and secure it, while suffering as little damage to myself and my partner as I could. And just so we are clear, I am still not in favor of armed EMTs, not am i against it.

The other problem is the gun itself. How are you going to secure the gun? Even if it is concealed, when you are bent over the patient how are you going to keep it secured. It is not hard to spot a concealed handgun.

I must respectfully disagree. I know quite a few officers (either PD or Corrections) who worked in not so nice areas, and carried concealed. usually in an ankle holster, from what I was told. With 100% confidence, I can say none of them were going to pull their gun unless they or their crew were in imminent danger, and that danger was caused by a bad guy recognizing them from their FT job and now thinking they were a soft target and wanted to cause them harm. If they were to draw, they might be fired, but they would be alive. Remember, if no one knows you have a weapon, than you are doing it right.

 

[NYMedic828]

I think everyone in EMS should be trained to the highest level of Krav Maga mastery and should be capable of disarming a foe with a handgun, shooting them in the leg and detaching the slide from the receiver in under 15 seconds.


Also, NYPD officers often don't have the best aim but lets be realistic here. 9/10 cops probably won't fire a single round in the field in a 25 year career. That one time that something hits the fan, training often goes out the window real fast. I can train you to shoot at someone all you want but it's a whole different ball game when the target returns fire.

 

[truetiger]

Just because we're on duty should not prevent us from having the same capability to defend ourselves as the general public. I work rural counties were its not uncommon to have 30 min ETA for law enforcement. If the scene becomes unsafe, its just you and your partner.

 

[NYMedic828]

Should the cashier at McDonalds be packing a 1911 .45 on his waist?

Some crazy people go through McDonalds on a daily basis...

 

[truetiger]

How do we know they aren't? There was an instance of a pizza delivery guy getting robbed at gun point here in st. louis. The unlucky suspect was shot multiple times by the driver with a concealed weapon. Of course he was fired due to policy but he said getting fired was nothing compared to possibly being shot and killed.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Just because we're on duty should not prevent us from having the same capability to defend ourselves as the general public. I work rural counties were its not uncommon to have 30 min ETA for law enforcement. If the scene becomes unsafe, its just you and your partner.

So then elementary school teachers should be allowed to carry on duty because even when they are at work they need to be able to defend themselves the same as the general public.

I should be able to carry inside a federal courthouse or jail/prison because I should be able to defend myself as a normal citizen correct?

Flight attendants should be able to carry because being on duty should not prevent them from carrying. I can go on and on.

There are jobs and places that don't allow firearms (even for police).

 

[truetiger]

Those examples are very controlled environments. The scenes we encounter every day are anything but controlled.