Hmm .... I am yet to see some evidence that EMS has a positive impact on M&M outside some cardiac arrest saves.
Seriosuly.
EMS getting put down.
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Hmm .... I am yet to see some evidence that EMS has a positive impact on M&M outside some cardiac arrest saves.
Seriosuly.
abckidsmom
Dances with Patients
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Short list: (none of these people are going to get a taxi to the hospital)
anaphylaxis
unconscious diabetics
heroin overdoses
choking
severe CHF
severe asthma
MI
But we probably have a much longer transport time than you're used to, Brown. And we wear pants and shirts. That contributes a lot to our ability to Save Lives.
If you knew how much garbage men make, you might change your tune. Given the choice between EMS and sanitation, sanitation is a much better career choice.
JPINFV
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How about apples to apples comparison. Would you rather have an experienced emergency nurse treating you in the ED or an experienced paramedic? Alternatively, would you rather have new paramedic or a new RN treating you in the ED. You don't get to make one experienced and the other fresh off the boat when making these comparisons (and the same goes for anyone who wants to talk about the old experienced cert mill paramedic vs the new college degreed paramedic).
OP
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lampnyter
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I dont know why everyone is getting mad over this.
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Oh I am definitely not mad, I don't think anyone else is either (at least I hope not.) I think that these are points that need to be discussed in our own community. Yes, newbies need to be compared together as do experienced practitioners. Yes, unfortunately I would prefer an RN above a Paramedic if I had to be taken care of. I also feel that some members of our community feel we should just simply transport PTs.
I am hoping not to make any inflammatory comments or ideas, I just feel that the EMS community is capable of SO much more. The people I have met are incredibly dedicated and talented, and passionate about PT care. I think that an advanced Paramedic level should be the future. Do I know exactly what that entails as far as skills, knowledge, and education is concerned, absolutely not.
The future will tell!
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The problem that you're facing is that for many years EMS was unregulated and "scoop and go" based. Paramedics were truly seen as ambulance drivers trained in first aid. Of course that has changed over the years, but if you spend any time in EMS you'll find that most people don't recognize that.
Also, back when my parents went to school people recognized that you could be a hard working and productive member of society with a high school education and vocational school. You could provide a good life for your family as an hourly worker with a technical job.
Today there is a big push to send everyone to college. In fact the school I teach at doesn't even recognize that some students may not go to college. You should see the looks on the kids and parent's faces when they find out that the kid will have to take college-track classes with less than a 40 IQ. I have special education students in my classes who can't tell time, open their locker, or write a sentence, who are expected to take Algebra, Geometry, etc.
It's a sign of the times.
Also, back when my parents went to school people recognized that you could be a hard working and productive member of society with a high school education and vocational school. You could provide a good life for your family as an hourly worker with a technical job.
Today there is a big push to send everyone to college. In fact the school I teach at doesn't even recognize that some students may not go to college. You should see the looks on the kids and parent's faces when they find out that the kid will have to take college-track classes with less than a 40 IQ. I have special education students in my classes who can't tell time, open their locker, or write a sentence, who are expected to take Algebra, Geometry, etc.
It's a sign of the times.
reaper
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Matt,
I have been preaching that for years. Not everyone needs a college education. Some people in society are not meant to be college grads.
We still need all those hard working blue collar workers that keep this country going. You have people that look down on a votech school, but that is what 70% of the people need. We need good plumbers, carpenters, garbage men, auto mechs and all the other supporting jobs that we need to keep this country alive. Most of these jobs pay more then what a college grad will earn. SO, we need to be showing kids that not everyone is set to be a college grad and not all college educated people are earning $100k a year.
If they are intelligent, then send them to college for higher education. If they are average, then send them to votech's for a job skill. If they are below average, then pray for them!
I have been preaching that for years. Not everyone needs a college education. Some people in society are not meant to be college grads.
We still need all those hard working blue collar workers that keep this country going. You have people that look down on a votech school, but that is what 70% of the people need. We need good plumbers, carpenters, garbage men, auto mechs and all the other supporting jobs that we need to keep this country alive. Most of these jobs pay more then what a college grad will earn. SO, we need to be showing kids that not everyone is set to be a college grad and not all college educated people are earning $100k a year.
If they are intelligent, then send them to college for higher education. If they are average, then send them to votech's for a job skill. If they are below average, then pray for them!
It is not that I disagree, but the problem is many of these "blue collar" jobs overpaid what their value was for years. In the current economic climate, i see that there will be a major realignment of these salaries. In other words they will go down considerably.
They will not be able to afford a middle income living and as such will basically create a larger level of "working poor" similar to other countries around the world. If you haven't seen the latest stats, there is a widening income gap between the haves and have nots in the US, with under 47% of dual income households making $50K or more. Around here, 50K doesn't go very far and earnings are not matching inflation.
I can see where primary and secondary schools have a huge problem on their hands because they are not set up to educate people for the modern world in the US. Nobody wants to spend the money to upgrade them and the teaching unions fight change anyway.
Just like EMS, education has fallen into a damage control mode and the only viable solution is to send people to college in order to position the student to get the education they should be getting earlier. The reason HS and votech don't work anymore is because the demands of society are higher than the demands of high school.
How do you tell a kid that if they don't go to college, they will most likely be poor the rest of their lives?
How does a society of poor support itself?
I think the US is in for some tough choices and tough times before these questions are settled.
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Veneficus,
I definitely understand what you're saying, but it doesn't reflect the realty of what I'm seeing in the public schools. Teaching in a wealthy neighborhood in one of the most progressive systems in the nation I teach classes of 30-35 students, with 15% of my student population having a diagnosed disability. Some have ADD, some can't spell their own name. Some of my students require direct one-on-one assistance to make it through the class.
At the end of every year we have meetings to discuss the student's four year plan, how the student will get through college and go on to the next step. I have high school students who are taking fourth grade math, and their parents are devastated when told that next year they will be taking Algebra. I have students who are still working on writing a sentence who will be required to take Composition/Lit next year. How are they going to go to college?
Not everyone needs to own the latest and greatest. As long as my students are productive and positive members of society I'm happy.
I definitely understand what you're saying, but it doesn't reflect the realty of what I'm seeing in the public schools. Teaching in a wealthy neighborhood in one of the most progressive systems in the nation I teach classes of 30-35 students, with 15% of my student population having a diagnosed disability. Some have ADD, some can't spell their own name. Some of my students require direct one-on-one assistance to make it through the class.
At the end of every year we have meetings to discuss the student's four year plan, how the student will get through college and go on to the next step. I have high school students who are taking fourth grade math, and their parents are devastated when told that next year they will be taking Algebra. I have students who are still working on writing a sentence who will be required to take Composition/Lit next year. How are they going to go to college?
Not everyone needs to own the latest and greatest. As long as my students are productive and positive members of society I'm happy.
If its any small consolation they don't get put down over here anyway.In hostile environments the guy who is EMT-I or higher and knows his business is considered one godlike mofo. Even sf respect the guys. You get to sit with the 'in crowd' of toughguys and mercenaries if you are a medic is what I am saying. Maybe not right in the middle, but you still got a seat nearby
The security companies all paying less now as the work is farmed out to 3rd world workers but still pay a premium for the western EMS guy on the team. Even with minimal military experience, or none in some cases.
They also serve as camp doc when required, handling consultations and dispensing whatever drugs stockpiled from some 'no prescription required pharmacy'. Funny how the engineers, scientist contractors and visiting CEO's gather the EMT into their social circle- when everyone is 300 miles from the nearest base hospital....
I know this may not help the current EMS situation in home countries but just giving you guys a well deserved boost
The security companies all paying less now as the work is farmed out to 3rd world workers but still pay a premium for the western EMS guy on the team. Even with minimal military experience, or none in some cases.
They also serve as camp doc when required, handling consultations and dispensing whatever drugs stockpiled from some 'no prescription required pharmacy'. Funny how the engineers, scientist contractors and visiting CEO's gather the EMT into their social circle- when everyone is 300 miles from the nearest base hospital....
I know this may not help the current EMS situation in home countries but just giving you guys a well deserved boost
I feel that this discussion of the need of blue collar to higher ed (college) is perfect for EMS.
This is my vision; Move EMS from the Dept of Transportation to its own governing body. Make a national license (just like nurses.) Make the entire emergency department, from transport to PT release part of the EMT regimen. Yes, remove all the respiratory therapists, techs, RN's, etc. I would like to see five or six levels of EMTs just like levels of enlistment in the military, from E-1 to E-7. Everyone is fully trained in the basics of assessment, and treatment you can then add specialties like x-ray tech and so forth in front of their level, or for a better term, rank.
The emergency dept. does not need to be military in nature but rather a fully functioning unit with the same basic education. EMS is trained for emergencies now let's use our abilities to the fullest potential, blue-collar to full professional. :blush:
This is my vision; Move EMS from the Dept of Transportation to its own governing body. Make a national license (just like nurses.) Make the entire emergency department, from transport to PT release part of the EMT regimen. Yes, remove all the respiratory therapists, techs, RN's, etc. I would like to see five or six levels of EMTs just like levels of enlistment in the military, from E-1 to E-7. Everyone is fully trained in the basics of assessment, and treatment you can then add specialties like x-ray tech and so forth in front of their level, or for a better term, rank.
The emergency dept. does not need to be military in nature but rather a fully functioning unit with the same basic education. EMS is trained for emergencies now let's use our abilities to the fullest potential, blue-collar to full professional. :blush:
TransportJockey
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If its any small consolation they don't get put down over here anyway.In hostile environments the guy who is EMT-I or higher and knows his business is considered one godlike mofo. Even sf respect the guys. You get to sit with the 'in crowd' of toughguys and mercenaries if you are a medic is what I am saying. Maybe not right in the middle, but you still got a seat nearby
The security companies all paying less now as the work is farmed out to 3rd world workers but still pay a premium for the western EMS guy on the team. Even with minimal military experience, or none in some cases.
They also serve as camp doc when required, handling consultations and dispensing whatever drugs stockpiled from some 'no prescription required pharmacy'. Funny how the engineers, scientist contractors and visiting CEO's gather the EMT into their social circle- when everyone is 300 miles from the nearest base hospital....
I know this may not help the current EMS situation in home countries but just giving you guys a well deserved boost
Hence why I've applied for overseas contracts
From what i see, wealthy neighborhood schools think everyone in the place is capable of college. The kids who aren't the next neurosurgeon, astronaut, or fortune 500 CEO are basically passed through so that as little effort and trouble is spent with them as possible. Would you say that is an accurate reflection where you are?
Simple answer, they are not.
But if they do they will spend thousands if not 10s of thousands on entry level courses like algebra and basic composition before they can take higher courses. Unfortunately, many will probably try college and quit.
Not really being an expert on the matter of HS education and just going by what I see, I have to ask 2 questions.
1. Should we have more votech in high schools instead of college prep, that way it eliminates the need to pay post secondary votech schools or community colleges?
As an example, there is a local HS here where you can earn your EMT cert and have a bunch of "healthcare" classes like med term instead of things like compostion and algebra. Taking EMT out of it, and substituting with plumbing or whatever, these students get a HS diploma, but without the college prep. or student loan debt.
2. Should students who cannot perform to a level of say intro to college be permitted to pass a grade until they meet the benchmarks?
I agree with you on this, but from my experience working with the very poor for many years and seeing the income gap widen as well as conditions deteriorate, lower end salaries are not even providing basic housing and food and the conditions in homes are making the ability to break the poverty cycle near impossible.
My point is today in society, whether we like it or not, whether we agree or not (and for the record I do not agree) without at least 2 years of community college, we are basically assigning people to poverty, and all the negative things like smoking, drugs, crime, etc that come with it.
If we don't change something, we might as well start teaching car theft, drug smuggling, and burglary in schools in order to teach people the skills they will need.
I think school needs to teach people to be a value to society, but if the system is only teaching people to go to college, it completely fails the people who won't by not giving them what they need to be productive at a level of self sustainment.
Sad that people are not accepted in society just as we were created. College simply isn't for everyone. We're just a sucky, blind and ignorant society when it comes to the needs of our students in general. Parents exepct normalcy, society expects equality...it's a lose, lose situation for educators.
Numbers equate to dollars and dollars is where administration's head is focused. Parents just want little Johnny to be "just like everyone else." In the end, educators are expected to somehow turn a kid with LD into a Rhodes Scholar.
In our quest to NOT discriminate, society has gotten even worse. Discrimination toward people with learning and physical challenges has grown, not diminished from more than just an educational perspective. Education has definately borne the biggest brunt. When all is said and done, employers still won't hire someone with significant challenges.... but dog-gone, society treated little Johnny "just like everyone else."
You have identified the problem.
But it is not limited to schools. Look at most medical protocols. "This works for 90% of all patients." (So what do you do for the other 10%?)
The answer: try to make them fit the protocol or just do the protocol when it doesn't help.
Recently with a family member in the US I noticed that all of the "mid level providers" we encountered were just protocol monkies. They simply couldn't understand that when you lose part of the skin on your legs it is an injury similar to a burn. When you have a person with 18% BSI of exposed dermis, a percocet every 6-8 hours simply won't do.
The best was the dietician. I won't go on anymore. I could write a book about it.
To sum up they all have college, probably shouldn't have ever gone, and can't think outside the protocol even though they are "masters level".
It is a parade of fools.
Ven, I identified the problem 31 years ago when my daughter was born.
It is a constant effort for her to even attempt the expectations society has of her in order to simply function day to day. It is a challenge trying to fit a square peg into society's round hole. For the most part we manage but, it sure would be nice if people were more tolerant. It isn't she who needs to learn...It's the rest of the world. We're not the type of parents with delusional ideas of how perfect our child is. She is perfect...perfectly herself. It is who she is...She and others like her are not going to fit into traditional molds.
It's hard to say exactly where all we went wrong in our thinking. I can think of a few hallmarks but the early 70's push to mainstream all children in a miserable attempt to create an illusion of "equality" is largely tho blame. Then there's "no kid left behind." What a dibocle that has been!! People do not realize special education and disabled services are always the first to suffer cut backs in educational funding and in the job market. Those affected are shifted further into mainstream education with little hope of success and piss-poor support services. Little Johnny has no voice :>(
reaper
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I am not talking about no education. Tech schools offer most kids a chance at a good life. As where they may waste 4 years in college to come out the same they went in.
I do not know where you are seeing this change. Service trades are still going strong in this economy. I know plenty of plumbers and mechanics, that make more then most college educated people ever will. They live very comfortable and provide a good life for their families.
EMS is the same way. We allow anyone to enter, even if they are not cut out for the job. That is where we end up with the bad apples.
I see it all around. I know somebody who makes a living as a "handy man" after he was laid off from building houses (he is licensed and bonded in multiple trades) he tells me it is the same for everyone in his field. They go day to day hoping to get a call for some work. The competition so tight that he often takes jobs for pennies on the dollar and has seen his income slashed to 1/3 what it was. He has gone weeks with no jobs at all and has detailed how when most people call he is in an unspoken bidding war. They ask him how much and if he doesn't beat the previous quote on the first try he is hung up on.
The more people you have out of work in an area, the less everyone will accept just to have something. I am not suggesting a vocation is not education, but I am watching the delcine in value of such vocations. I also see a lot of people "doing it themselves" compared to before. How many people would spend a couple thousand dollars on paying for somebody to lay a hardwood floor when they can get the "snap together" floor at home depot for around $100.
Not to mention you don't have to worry about the contractor charging you for high quality lumber and then using low quality.
I am not advocating it, i don't think it is right, but it is what I see.
reaper
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Ven,
That is a whole different ballgame. Anyone that does a construction trade knows it has ups and downs. You must prepare for them. I used to do high line work. Made around $120k a year. But, I may work 4 months and be out for 2-3 months, waiting on next job. That is just part of that trade.
But a service job is one that is needed. People will go without buying a new house, in a bad economy. They will not go without getting their A/C fixed, Their Car fixed or having their plumbing backed up into their house. These jobs are always in demand, even in hard times. These are skilled professions that make a good living.
I just see everyone pushing their kid to a college education, even if little johnny is dumb as a box of rocks. I see way to many kids working at walmart, because they cannot find that dream job in political science. To many people are getting a degree in a field that has no job openings. Parents need to think of the future and steer their kids in the right direction.
We will always need the service workers to keep the world running and we will always need the higher educated to steer it in the right direction. But, there has to be a balance between the two. Not everyone is cut out for higher education, so do not let them feel bad about having a career that could make them happy. I encourage any kid to follow what they want in life. Do not worry about the money or the status. If you are not happy with what you do, then you will never be happy in life.