Do "High-Performance" Employers Actually Want Experience?

The odd part is that those "advanced" protocols often actually help patients who need things like pain management.
If I were asked to write an adult analgesia protocol, it'd be simple: 1 mcg/kg of fentanyl and 30 mg of ketorolac IV. Repeat the fentanyl at 1/2 dose q 5 min prn. Probably add or substitute some ketamine for select scenarios. 650mg of acetaminophen in select cases as well.

A protocol like that is basic paramedicine 101. Nothing "advanced" about it.
 
And yet most places refuse to consider it.
 
Back to the point, though..."advanced" protocols have no inherent value. They are only a good thing where they benefit patients, and in very few cases have they been shown to. Perhaps that is why we don't see more of them.

What we do should be all about patient outcomes....we should not strive to be "advanced" for the benefit of the paramedics who execute the protocols.
 
And what is your definition of "patient outcomes"? Nearly all of our calls have the exact same mortality rate regardless of EMS treatment rendered- so what is your outcome base?
 
And what is your definition of "patient outcomes"? Nearly all of our calls have the exact same mortality rate regardless of EMS treatment rendered- so what is your outcome base?

Exactly - that is the whole point.
 
But outcomes are more than mortality.
 
But outcomes are more than mortality.
Of course. But which of those outcomes is improved by hiring experienced paramedics vs training your own? Which outcome is improved by the paramedics having high-speed "advanced" protocols vs run-of-the-mill ALS protocols? Which outcome is improved by the medical director telling the paramedics "I want you to act like a clinician, not a technician" (as if simply saying that can make it actually happen)? Which outcome is improved in a system that hires outspoken, critical paramedics vs. ones that are more likely to go with the flow and not rock the boat? None, likely.

The point here, again, is that an EMS system's primary responsibility is NOT to provide a comfortable job to paramedics or to stroke their ego with meaningless catch phrases about clinicians vs. technicians and guidelines vs. protocols. The primary responsibility of any EMS system, rather, is to design a system that is efficient at responding to requests and focused on accurately measuring and constantly improving patient outcomes. Everything - QI, staffing, deployment strategies, training, protocols - should be focused on improving clinical outcomes. That is why EMS exists - for the patients, not for the paramedics.

And here's the rub: It is very likely that doing a good job of improving clinical outcomes does NOT require advanced protocols, does NOT require the paramedics to all have CCP/FPC/TCP/whatever-the-newest-whizbang-moneymakingscheme-oops-I-meant-certification-is, does NOT require nice comfortable stations for the crews, does NOT require the hiring of experienced paramedics. In fact, the more I think about it I can see why places that are really QI and PI oriented might prefer to mold their own people and weed out the paragods that think they are too good play the role of a small cog in a big machine. Similar to the way that everyone who joins the military goes through the same basic training, no matter their previous life experience.

I don't begrudge anyone looking for a system that does provide those things, because they are nice to have. But let's be honest here and admit that these are things we want for ourselves, and stop pretending that we want them because they are somehow better for patients, and stop pretending that systems that don't provide those things are inferior, as are the people who willingly take jobs there.

I know that's a hard chunk of meat for a lot of people to swallow, but there you go.
 
Disagree, in many, many ways. Let me figure out multiquote here.
 
Of course. But which of those outcomes is improved by hiring experienced paramedics vs training your own? Which outcome is improved by the paramedics having high-speed "advanced" protocols vs run-of-the-mill ALS protocols? Which outcome is improved by the medical director telling the paramedics "I want you to act like a clinician, not a technician" (as if simply saying that can make it actually happen)? Which outcome is improved in a system that hires outspoken, critical paramedics vs. ones that are more likely to go with the flow and not rock the boat? None, likely.

Mortality-wise, we don't know and probably never will know the difference between experienced medics, brand-new students and literal van drivers in most high-volume semi-urban EMS systems. Functionally, the protocols are pretty topped out for most of these places in terms of what is commonly accepted- but if my time at EMSA was any indication, many of the portions of the protocols were simply never used in favor of diesel boluses. Looking at "high-performance" places, I see a lot of average or high-median medicine being passed off as the best and latest woth a heavy underlying emphasis on transport and ignoring all but a few spicy patient types in order to bring all resources to bear on those- and relying on hospitals to pick up the slack.


The point here, again, is that an EMS system's primary responsibility is NOT to provide a comfortable job to paramedics or to stroke their ego with meaningless catch phrases about clinicians vs. technicians and guidelines vs. protocols. The primary responsibility of any EMS system, rather, is to design a system that is efficient at responding to requests and focused on accurately measuring and constantly improving patient outcomes. Everything - QI, staffing, deployment strategies, training, protocols - should be focused on improving clinical outcomes. That is why EMS exists - for the patients, not for the paramedics.

Agreed on the mission, but I disagree on the direction that you are taking this. Functionally, if you wanted to improve certain metrics (ie resuscitations) you could and should simply build your system to be fanstastic at those things- like Medic One has. However, medicine is more than just isolated metrics or fields of metrics, and I think that overall clinical outcomes are best improved by being good at almost everythIng. To do that, you need to retain staff- and that's why agencies need to be concerned about their medics.


And here's the rub: It is very likely that doing a good job of improving clinical outcomes does NOT require advanced protocols, does NOT require the paramedics to all have CCP/FPC/TCP/whatever-the-newest-whizbang-moneymakingscheme-oops-I-meant-certification-is, does NOT require nice comfortable stations for the crews, does NOT require the hiring of experienced paramedics. In fact, the more I think about it I can see why places that are really QI and PI oriented might prefer to mold their own people and weed out the paragods that think they are too good play the role of a small cog in a big machine. Similar to the way that everyone who joins the military goes through the same basic training, no matter their previous life experience.

You miss the point here almost completely. I broadly agree that improved outcomes do not necessarily require advanced protocols, tools or alphabet soup, but those things are the building blocks of health care that goes beyond transport and starts saving money, resources and a few lives along the way. Better pain meds, slightly more optimal resuscitation measures and even fancy lab equipment are certainly helpful in the emergency-response setting, but in a broader and larger sense, these things (along with increased training requirements) become vital for mission diversification and expansion. You point out that QI and PI focused agencies prefer to mold their own- but look at the functional result of that. They're reinforcing the echo chamber and want to ensure that the sole vision and measure of success is their leadership's.
Your contrast with military training is flawed. The military, contrary to popular belief, is not about breaking people down. It is about challenging them to adapt to adversity and work towards a common goal harmoniously. Training is not intended to remove initiative, it is intended to develop it. The military is rigid and inflexible in its command structure, but look at it from an operational point of view: when properly managed, the details of operations are left to the level of the individual soldier or Marine, with leadership responsible for ensuring that every one of their people is ready and capable. The military is nearly the opposite of a high-performance EMS provider in that they are not trying to "weed out" the "paragods", they seek to make the paragods mindful of the world around them and make the meek confident that they can perform as a paragod despite adversity. HP EMS just tries to weed out those who don't fit.

I don't begrudge anyone looking for a system that does provide those things, because they are nice to have. But let's be honest here and admit that these are things we want for ourselves, and stop pretending that we want them because they are somehow better for patients, and stop pretending that systems that don't provide those things are inferior, as are the people who willingly take jobs there.

I know that's a hard chunk of meat for a lot of people to swallow, but there you go.
You are straight-up wrong here, Remi. I am a better provider when I am not worried about myself, my finances, or trying to fight off sleep. We provide better, more compassionate, more polite, and more professional care when we are not literally living at work. We are happier and healthier and far more tolerant of patients and their problems when we respond from an air-conditioned station in a clean truck in a clean uniform than when we respond in a filthy truck in summer heat in a bad mood. Systems that do not provide their employees with a livable wage, adequate equipment, or that deploy them in such a way as to guarantee apathy and discomfort are inferior to those that care for their employees as people, not assets. The people are not inferior, but I feel many of us are brainwashed to some extent- we accept poor treatment because we do not know any better!
 
Look, I'll be honest here - I don't really know what we are talking about. I'll try to clarify my points on what seem to be the issues at hand.

Some services value uniformity enough to require everyone go through their own paramedic program, or require them to work them as a basic, regardless of their background, for a set period of time. I don't think I would run an agency that way, but I can see why they might. I also wouldn't want to do that as an experienced paramedic, but that would be my problem, not the agency's. I certainly don't think it reflects negatively on that agency, at least not in any objective way.

Experience is overrated as an indicator of competency in EMS. You can argue that it isn't, but you need to substantiate that position objectively if you want to convince people. I'm not aware of any research that supports that point of view, and I highly doubt you will ever find any way to objectively demonstrate that an agency that mostly hires experienced paramedics has better outcomes than one that mostly hires brand new paramedics. The learning curve for paramedicine is steep in the very beginning, but it flattens out quickly.

I also think very little we do in EMS affects clinical outcomes measurably. And by "clinical outcomes", I'm talking about morbidity and mortality related to serious illness or injury, which is the primary reason EMS exists. The truth is that most of our patients would do just as well going to the hospital in a taxi as in an ALS ambulance....or even not going to the hospital at all. There are clear exceptions of course, but they are a small percentage of our transports, and even among those, it's really only a few key interventions that make the difference. It doesn't take a 10-year paramedic working for a cutting-edge agency (however you define that) to know when to give a continuous neb for refractory asthma, or CPAP for CHF, or versed for seizures, or defibrillate VF promptly.

Let's suffice it to say that everyone owes it to themselves to find a position that works for and is satisfactory to them, at an agency that meets their own definition of "a good place to work".
 
Look, I'll be honest here - I don't really know what we are talking about. I'll try to clarify my points on what seem to be the issues at hand.

Some services value uniformity enough to require everyone go through their own paramedic program, or require them to work them as a basic, regardless of their background, for a set period of time. I don't think I would run an agency that way, but I can see why they might. I also wouldn't want to do that as an experienced paramedic, but that would be my problem, not the agency's. I certainly don't think it reflects negatively on that agency, at least not in any objective way.

Experience is overrated as an indicator of competency in EMS. You can argue that it isn't, but you need to substantiate that position objectively if you want to convince people. I'm not aware of any research that supports that point of view, and I highly doubt you will ever find any way to objectively demonstrate that an agency that mostly hires experienced paramedics has better outcomes than one that mostly hires brand new paramedics. The learning curve for paramedicine is steep in the very beginning, but it flattens out quickly.

I also think very little we do in EMS affects clinical outcomes measurably. And by "clinical outcomes", I'm talking about morbidity and mortality related to serious illness or injury, which is the primary reason EMS exists. The truth is that most of our patients would do just as well going to the hospital in a taxi as in an ALS ambulance....or even not going to the hospital at all. There are clear exceptions of course, but they are a small percentage of our transports, and even among those, it's really only a few key interventions that make the difference. It doesn't take a 10-year paramedic working for a cutting-edge agency (however you define that) to know when to give a continuous neb for refractory asthma, or CPAP for CHF, or versed for seizures, or defibrillate VF promptly.

Let's suffice it to say that everyone owes it to themselves to find a position that works for and is satisfactory to them, at an agency that meets their own definition of "a good place to work".
I like Remi.
 
Title asks the question. Many "high-performance" EMS systems exist, generally with isolated and insular hiring practices designed to build employees their way. What is your opinion of these agencies in terms of their desire for outside experience?
In my experience, most "high-performance" EMS systems want people with experience, but doesn't really care how much experience you have. In fact, if you come to a system with 20 years of experience, they don't care; only your experience with their system will really matter.

The other thing is, they want you to drink the Koolaid. plain and simple. They don't care what you think; they want you to do things their way, and evaluate you on how well you can adapt to their way. All too often, there is the right way to do things, the wrong way, and the agency, and they want you to do the agency way, regardless of if you think it is right or wrong. So if you know a better way to do something, that's nice; do it the way they want you to do it.

BTW, many "high-performance EMS systems" are called that because they market themselves, actively publish their own EMS research, have great relationships with the press, and realize that being transparent about what they do can lead to better recruitment, better funding, and a better level opinion of their service, at least when compared to other agencies in healthcare and public safety.
 
Ugh. I don't get why now that Remi is a CRNA he just loves to bash EMS, and do it in such a way that I find it grammatically amazing. You sound so intelligent, but only a dumb*** would go into a quality steakhouse and order the sushi. I can't imagine why you are here on this forum always bashing on EMS. "Well you can't objectively prove that paramedics don't make a difference.. blah blah blah... Well you cant prove that a paramedic has more responsibility than a garbage man...." That all I ever hear from you.
Why are you always in opposition of EMS providers? (Even in threads that aren't asking how you feel about EMS in general.)

On the topic, in Las Vegas, we take people from all over the country. However, most folks aren't looking to come here to stay. Generally, they are looking for some
bang for their buck. That is they want a little time in Vegas to put on their resume. However, most are unable to pass their initial hiring internships (referring to paramedics 10 rides with an FTO) and they are placed in intermediate positions for anywhere from 1-6 months to learn the system, lay of the land, protocols, etc. Most (not all) of our transplants come from SoCal, and most (not all) are unable to start right off as medics. I don't think we mold anyone to anything. I think we are looking for folks who are competent at their job, who show up on time, and do their job hopefully for as long as possible. Most people understand this place (private EMS) is a stepping stone. It is not a stepping stone because we don't make a difference or feel like most could take a taxi; it is a stepping stone because most (not all) companies don't care for long-term retention (crap pay, crap benefits, crap retirement, etc.) We all know there is an ample supply of credentialed folks like us. My point is that, as a part of a "high performance EMS system" we are always seeking talented folks to enhance our mission and the quality of care of the patients who require our services.
 
Ugh. I don't get why now that Remi is a CRNA he just loves to bash EMS, and do it in such a way that I find it grammatically amazing. You sound so intelligent, but only a dumb*** would go into a quality steakhouse and order the sushi. I can't imagine why you are here on this forum always bashing on EMS. "Well you can't objectively prove that paramedics don't make a difference.. blah blah blah... Well you cant prove that a paramedic has more responsibility than a garbage man...." That all I ever hear from you.
Why are you always in opposition of EMS providers? (Even in threads that aren't asking how you feel about EMS in general.)

Sorry to see that your skin still has not grown to the thickness normally found in an adult male.

My comments were made in a certain context and for the purpose of making a certain point. Most folks seem to have gotten that. Critically analyzing something necessitates acknowledging the negatives as well as the positives, and is not the same as "bashing" it; I think I've tried to explain that to you before.

If I hurt your feelings so easily maybe you should just block me?
 
You aren't hurting my feeling, Remi. Like I said... I just don't understand you or why you are anti EMS - however you want to frame it.
 
I think you're one of those guys who's too smart for your own good.
 
I don't see Remi as "anti EMS" at all. I read his posts as anti BS.

He certainly doesn't need me to defend him (nor does he probably want it) but I find his posts usually well researched and presented with well thought out positions.

It's true; EMS agencies don't (in the general scheme of things) give a rip about the paramedic's INDIVIDUAL abilities or preferences, it's the overall system metrics that count. Progressive protocols and the "be a clinician, not a technician" rhetoric is usually only there as a recruiting tool.
 
Last edited:
I don't see Remi as "anti EMS" at all. I read his posts as anti BS.

He certainly doesn't need me to defend him (nor does he probably want it) but I find his posts usually well researched and presented with well thought out positions.

It's true; EMS agencies don't (in the general scheme of things) give a rip about the paramedic's INDIVIDUAL abilities or preferences, it's the overall system metrics that count. Progressive protocols and the "be a clinician, not a technician" rhetoric is usually only there as a recruiting tool.
Exactly. At a certain point we need to do an honest assessment of the services we provide and what their benefits actually are. The flashy things we like to brag about as high speed don't really make a difference in system wide outcomes, which is how healthcare measures things.
 
I hardly think that pointing out that certain interventions performed by EMS may have no clinical benefit is "anti-EMS". If anything, it's the opposite. How are we supposed to advance EMS if we can't even admit where we could be getting it wrong?
 
I hardly think that pointing out that certain interventions performed by EMS may have no clinical benefit is "anti-EMS". If anything, it's the opposite. How are we supposed to advance EMS if we can't even admit where we could be getting it wrong?

It doesnt get much more simple than
that.

In CHF:
CPAP = Value.
RSI = Questionable.

In cardiac arrest:
CPR/early defib = value.
Most other ACLS = questionable.

I could go on and on... The sexy stuff isn't really bringing much to the table, aside from feeding paramedic ego and making for increased difficulty in maintaining competency in the low frequency procedures.

Let's look closely at what we do and realize that the sizzle really doesn't matter. It SHOULD be mostly a series of simple interventions, performed in a timely manner, followed by a safe, comfortable ride to definitive care.
 
Back
Top