Code driving

mycrofft

Still crazy but elsewhere
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Vent, We're once again posting past one another.

The title of the post is about CODE 3 driving. My point was that, by and large, your response time to emergencies will not be improved by code three driving enough to save the most critical pts. Not to mention the cases where you pull up at Warp Four and the pt is waiting with a suitcase and reading the National Enquirer while sipping Southern Comfort.

The driver is legally, morally and ethically responsible for vehicle ops. Period.
As a driver (not on a NICU etc run) I have refused to start the vehicle until I felt the care compartment was safe, people strapped, door closed all the way, cot latched, etc. The driver is, by the same token, not usually responsible for the practice occuring in the back because he is driving.

Now if the driver is just a driver and not a "reasonable practitioner" (which would make him a very expensive driver), he cannot reasonably refuse or alter directions except for vehicle safety. If he's a crappy driver then he gets fired. In fact, send him for coffee and leave without.

Speaking strictly about NICU and other delicate patients, ideally the transport ought to be just like taking the pt down the hall to another room, smooth but not too long and dependent upon the caregivers and not speed to preserve the pt. The driver takes the smoothest route offering the shortest time and listens for feedback from in back.

NICU and such are relatively rare, unless that's what you are talented and lucky enough to do as a living. The rest need to be good, safe and smooth, but you guys are held to an even higher standard.
 
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Buzz

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Ipods and cell phones....

Ever try to get the attention of one of your own co-workers who have these things stuck in their ears? Or even try to give report to one of them at a nurses' station during a pt pickup? And that is on the job. Now imagine all those people speeding around in their cars wearing the same devices and paying the same amount of attention.

That's generally what I blame on the disregard for our vehicles. I guess I'm still optimistic in that I would rather think they aren't yielding because they are unaware of our presence rather than seeing us and just not caring.
 
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daedalus

daedalus

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I believe the point Vent was making, driving with l/s was not going to change or make any difference. In reality what difference if arriving to the hospital by four minutes earlier for what? You have an physician, neonate nurse (both specialist as well) what more do you want? The mobile unit should be able to provide the general care and surroundings of the initial care. Hence the reason why national trends and scientific research have made the move from flight service for neonate to ground transport.... no need for rapid transport to the hospital.

R/r 911
In LA county, code three makes the difference of an hour versus 10 minutes.
 
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daedalus

daedalus

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more: i respect and understand where you are coming from vent. i do not make the decisions yet, however. when i advance my education and am able to make these decisions, i will probably see eye to eye with you on code three. please remember that intersections in LA back up to five miles every day at rush our (westwood and santa monica area im sure jpinfv can back me up)
 

boingo

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doubtful. the boys over at h+h are as close to being above the law in this state as is actually possible.

We ARE the law! :p Problem with the city is getting anywhere with the traffic and lights. Without l/s we would never get anywhere, its a necessary evil, at least to get to the call. Also, by regulation lights at the very least are required when transporting.
 

MedicPrincess

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Are you seriously going to tell me that the EMT-B driver, in all 110 hours of his educational experience, know how better to judge if a patient is having an acute emergency than a physician with 8 years of education and at least three years of residency training? I seriously doubt that who ever is driving a critical care team even views the patient's file, especially if the team is made up of a combination of physicians, nurses, and RTs.

I just looked up the requirements to be part of the NICU transport team for our local hospital. This is for the DRIVER position.

Paramedic, min 1 year expierience with NICU exp. preferred
BCLS
ACLS
NRP
EVOC
Must function as an integral part of the team within NICU and on the Transport team to promote quality patient care


Thats a bit more than your Basic EMT class.
 

KEVD18

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We ARE the law! :p Problem with the city is getting anywhere with the traffic and lights. Without l/s we would never get anywhere, its a necessary evil, at least to get to the call. Also, by regulation lights at the very least are required when transporting.

lets not go ahead and get all big headed. the fact that oems would love to walk in and shut the doors tomorrow(a direct quote from an lfto) isnt necessarily a pride inducing talking point.

also, im assuming the reference to the regulation requiring lights when transporting is bems regulation, since im quite sure ive never seen such a regulation anywhere in either mgl, cmr, stp, or any memorandum or administrative requirement letter.

the fact is the in many cases, its highly unnecessary. i dont take lots of call on lights. sorry but if you tell me that you want to go to the hospital because you're out of pain meds again, not only are you getting a dark and quite ride, but you're going straight to the waiting room as well.
 

Sapphyre

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please remember that intersections in LA back up to five miles every day at rush our (westwood and santa monica area im sure jpinfv can back me up)

1.5 hours USC to QOA at 1500? USC and QOA are maybe 10 miles apart. By contrast, at 0300, the same trip takes maybe 30 minutes.

BTW, I do happen to agree that the transport team was probably the wrong one for the patient's condition.

Oh, and, Vent. Your local NICU transport may require a medic specially trained for NICU, but, out here, even dedicated NICU specialty team transports regularly use EMTs (many times fresh out of school, no extra training and little to no experience) as the driver for the team they pick up at the NICU. Disturbing, I know
 
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daedalus

daedalus

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1.5 hours USC to QOA at 1500? USC and QOA are maybe 10 miles apart. By contrast, at 0300, the same trip takes maybe 30 minutes.

BTW, I do happen to agree that the transport team was probably the wrong one for the patient's condition.

Oh, and, Vent. Your local NICU transport may require a medic specially trained for NICU, but, out here, even dedicated NICU specialty team transports regularly use EMTs (many times fresh out of school, no extra training and little to no experience) as the driver for the team they pick up at the NICU. Disturbing, I know
The transport team, an experienced ER, ICU, and Flight nurse, and a emergency physician, and two EMTs is more than adequate in my opinion.

However you gave me a good laugh. God I hate County USC. I think I have probably spent a cumulative few days in their pysch ER.
 
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daedalus

daedalus

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As a patient?:ph34r::p

/me is bad, but you left yourself open with that...

Yup! on a 72 hour hahaha!

no no no. Just waiting for those people to copy your paperwork to drop off your patient is a nightmere!
 

VentMedic

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Oh, and, Vent. Your local NICU transport may require a medic specially trained for NICU, but, out here, even dedicated NICU specialty team transports regularly use EMTs (many times fresh out of school, no extra training and little to no experience) as the driver for the team they pick up at the NICU. Disturbing, I know

Paramedics are not on our teams. That also includes some adult teams, specialty and/or flight. RNs and RRTs are the medical part, maybe an EMT driver or not. You don't have to be an EMT to be a driver in many states. The only teams that require a Paramedic cert on board are scene response and the Paramedic test can easily be challenged to overcome that obstacle.
 
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boingo

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lets not go ahead and get all big headed. the fact that oems would love to walk in and shut the doors tomorrow(a direct quote from an lfto) isnt necessarily a pride inducing talking point.

also, im assuming the reference to the regulation requiring lights when transporting is bems regulation, since im quite sure ive never seen such a regulation anywhere in either mgl, cmr, stp, or any memorandum or administrative requirement letter.

the fact is the in many cases, its highly unnecessary. i dont take lots of call on lights. sorry but if you tell me that you want to go to the hospital because you're out of pain meds again, not only are you getting a dark and quite ride, but you're going straight to the waiting room as well.

Transporting with lights is a state regulation. We have argued the point to no avail.

As for the state shutting us down, it will never happen, they have no reason to, we work within their framework, as *** backwards as it might be, hell, we are probably one of the few systems that actaully staffs our ALS trucks with two medics, without exception.
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
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I just looked up the requirements to be part of the NICU transport team for our local hospital. This is for the DRIVER position.

Paramedic, min 1 year expierience with NICU exp. preferred
BCLS
ACLS
NRP
EVOC
Must function as an integral part of the team within NICU and on the Transport team to promote quality patient care


Thats a bit more than your Basic EMT class.


It really depends on where you are. The company that I used to work for had the local children's hospital contract (the hosp had their own transport team and we provided the ambulance and driver, but if they were being overran they used our basics and RNs for the less critical calls). Now the drivers were on a separate schedule from the rest of the company and all they did was children's hospital transports, so it wasn't a simple "who's available to take this call" random driver situation, but I can't see them arguing with the transport team on if the patient needed to be transported emergently or not. Similarly, in your case, I can't see the medic/driver going "screw the MD, I'm driving code 3." Similarly, we're both talking about specialty teams whereas it feels like the thread is generally talking about non-specialty CCT teams.
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
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We ARE the law! :p Problem with the city is getting anywhere with the traffic and lights. Without l/s we would never get anywhere, its a necessary evil, at least to get to the call. Also, by regulation lights at the very least are required when transporting.

Wait, are you seriously telling me that all transports require the use of emergency lights and sirens? That said, the amount of times I've seen a BEMS ambulance sitting 5-7 cars back at a red light blaring their sirens and horns and forcing cars into intersections with people in the cross walk in pretty scary. I saw it happen twice last week alone.

Of course the really stupid thing (albeit not a BEMS thing) is the amount of times I've seen ambulances going north on the 93 by the Neponset circle with their L/S when there wasn't any congestion. (note to any EMTs in MA south of Boston. If you're ambulance is going the speedlimit on the freeway you really don't need any ambulances).
 
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boingo

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Absolutely. I have had this battle before, it makes no sense to me. As for blaring sirens to get through intersection, its not mandated, however when RESPONDING to calls, it is required.
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
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(note to any EMTs in MA south of Boston. If you're ambulance is going the speedlimit on the freeway you really don't need any lights and sirens).

brain fart when writing that post.
 

Sapphyre

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God I hate County USC. I think I have probably spent a cumulative few days in their pysch ER.

LOL, I haven't yet had the pleasure. I did get intimately familiar with Norris and University. County USC will come, I'm sure.
 

Sapphyre

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Paramedics are not on our teams.

My apologies Vent. The rebuttal on the Paramedics as drivers was actually aimed at MedicPrincess.... (Teach me to post on not enough sleep).
 
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daedalus

daedalus

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LOL, I haven't yet had the pleasure. I did get intimately familiar with Norris and University. County USC will come, I'm sure.

Well, university hospital is where the pros practice. they do cutting edge open hearts and all that. its for patients will really good insurance. im sure you have seen the over powering profile of the old grey building that is the county hospital across the street.
 
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