Can you call "On the road, In service"?

[JPINFV]

I'll also add that by not parking in a parking spot (even if you end up double parking), all you end up doing is drawing unneeded attention to yourself.

Also, I'm more... displeased... when the fire department goes shopping in an engine, especially if a squad vehicle or 'fire SUV' is available. However it's not enough trouble to actually complain about it, especially to the crews who are normally following orders and tradition.

 

[Handsome Robb]

My 2 pet peeves:

1. Needlessly leaving the unit running.

2. Parking in a disruptive location. I don't care that it's an emergency vehicle, unless you're there on emergency business there's no reason to park in the red zone blocking traffic.

1. We idle because it's policy. They had a problem with units getting vapor locked if we shut them off or so I'm told. Also it was prematurely killing engines since crews weren't letting them idle long enough to let the turbo cool down after running around the city.

2. If there is a spot to park in a 'red zone' that doesn't disrupt traffic but puts us close to the entrance you bet we will park there. If there isn't a good spot one crewmember goes inside while the other waits in the unit and will pull to the front door if we get a call. The partner that is away from the unit always copies dispatch traffic, not the one waiting.

To reply to your next post, sure it brings attention to us but it isn't uncommon for kids to come up and ask to see the inside of the ambulance and everybody that I have ever worked with is glad to show them. I'd say that improves public perception and relations but that's just me.

 

[fast65]

We can pretty much go wherever we want in town, as long as we can maintain a good response time then our supervisors don't care. Hell, we'll go hangout at someone's house if we get bored.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DrParasite]

My 2 pet peeves:

1. Needlessly leaving the unit running.

2. Parking in a disruptive location. I don't care that it's an emergency vehicle, unless you're there on emergency business there's no reason to park in the red zone blocking traffic.

We leave the truck running, because they have a bad habit of not starting up after we shut them down. Which isn't a problem if it's at the hospital, or at the station, but if we are away from a quick jump, it causes a delay in the response when we can't get a jump.

As for your second pet peeve, if I park in the red zone, that's less I have to travel to get to my truck, and allows me to respond to the emergency faster. not only that, but If i'm parking in a space at the other end of the lot, than if we get a call, I need to run across the parking lot and avoid getting hit by a car. Contrast that with running on the sidewalk to the waiting truck, where all I need to do is avoid pedestrians and the occasional employee pushing a bunch of carts.

Park out of the way, not directly in front of any pedestrian traffic, but also where you can make a rapid safe trip to the ambulance and help the person who called 911 and needs assistance.

 

[JPINFV]

As for your second pet peeve, if I park in the red zone, that's less I have to travel to get to my truck, and allows me to respond to the emergency faster. not only that, but If i'm parking in a space at the other end of the lot, than if we get a call, I need to run across the parking lot and avoid getting hit by a car. Contrast that with running on the sidewalk to the waiting truck, where all I need to do is avoid pedestrians and the occasional employee pushing a bunch of carts.

If the parking lot is so congested that you can't walk briskly out to an ambulance in an acceptable time frame, then it's too congested to egress the ambulance in a timely fashion and you shouldn't be parking in that lot for personal business.

If taking 30 more seconds to walk across the parking lot is 30 seconds too long, then you shouldn't be leaving the ambulance in the first place either. Also, if I'm going to buy the "response time" argument, then there's no point for stations outside of eating and the restroom as the crew should be waiting inside the ambulance at all times waiting for a call. After all, if seconds count...

The "response time" arguments when conducting personal business are too much trying to 'have your cake and eat it too' for me to buy it.

Also, maybe it's because I'm blessed to be living in relatively warm weather year round, but I've never had a problem getting an engine to start, be it 50k miles or 300k miles.

 

[WuLabsWuTecH]

At my city department, since our districts are so small, we are encouraged to stay in district, but if we are grabbing a quick bite to eat, going into a neighboring district is allowed. Since our primary run district is only about 1 sq mile, to get groceries to come back and make dinner requires that we leave the district!

We are encouraged during the day, especially weekend, to leave the station and go to the playgrounds, schools, pool, etc for public relations purposes to hang out with the masses.

In my rural department, the rules are a lot more lax. The full timers are not allowed to leave the station very often (3 times a day, up to one hour each for the 24 guy, once a day, up to one hour for the day crew). The breaks are designed for meals but personal errands can be run. They have to stay within 5 minutes of the station, and can only take breaks after all station duties are done as well as post-run duties.

The part-timers have no such restriction. Since our title is still technically that of "volunteer" we have no requirement to be on station when we are on call. Just that we are within 5 minutes of station. If you are running a personal errand, you take your own POV (full-time or part-time). If anything you are doing is for the department, you can take a medic and as long as you stay within 5 minutes, you can run personal errands in it as well.

If you have a couple of people going to the same place, you can also take a medic, but you are now first due regardless of where you are in the actual rotation. The full-timers will often buddy up with the part-timers here since it means they can get out for more of the day, especially if it's a nice day out.

 

[WuLabsWuTecH]

I'll also add that by not parking in a parking spot (even if you end up double parking), all you end up doing is drawing unneeded attention to yourself.

Also, I'm more... displeased... when the fire department goes shopping in an engine, especially if a squad vehicle or 'fire SUV' is available. However it's not enough trouble to actually complain about it, especially to the crews who are normally following orders and tradition.

This can be true, but often the fire lane in front of grocery stores and such is it's own separate lane so you aren't blocking up anyone by being there. In larger parking lots I like to do this because the walk back to the truck can take a minute or more. I don't think you are drawing unneeded attention to yourself in the fire lane since your truck says fire department on the side of it! I will say that unless i'm on an emergency run, I'll try not to take up handicapped spots.

In a smaller lot, like Wendy's or Chipotle or something, yeah I'll park in the back out of the way since the fire lane in those places are not separate and the lot is small enough to get through quickly.


What's wrong with driving the engine to go get groceries? It'd be even less efficient to drive the station car there, then respond back to the station to pick up the engine right?

1. We idle because it's policy. They had a problem with units getting vapor locked if we shut them off or so I'm told. Also it was prematurely killing engines since crews weren't letting them idle long enough to let the turbo cool down after running around the city.

2. If there is a spot to park in a 'red zone' that doesn't disrupt traffic but puts us close to the entrance you bet we will park there. If there isn't a good spot one crewmember goes inside while the other waits in the unit and will pull to the front door if we get a call. The partner that is away from the unit always copies dispatch traffic, not the one waiting.

To reply to your next post, sure it brings attention to us but it isn't uncommon for kids to come up and ask to see the inside of the ambulance and everybody that I have ever worked with is glad to show them. I'd say that improves public perception and relations but that's just me.

We keep the medic running on scene so it's powered. In station we have a shore line. At the hospital, at most places we turn off the engine since it's well ventilated. At both of my departments, we can't respond from the hospital anyway (there are always at least 3 units closer in the city, and in the sticks even the closest hospital is about 25 minutes away) so there is no fear of it not starting.

Yeah, we park the medic outside on nice days and hang out outside the station or go to the park/pool/community center nearby for that reason. Kids will swing by to see things, and adults will come talk to us about pretty much everything.

 

[JPINFV]

This can be true, but often the fire lane in front of grocery stores and such is it's own separate lane so you aren't blocking up anyone by being there.

This has to be location dependent, because in my experience when a fire lane is present it's because it's a part of a road feeding the parking lot, and not a dedicated "lane" so to speak. It's more of a strict "no parking" than a spot to park for emergency vehicles running personal errands.

What's wrong with driving the engine to go get groceries? It'd be even less efficient to drive the station car there, then respond back to the station to pick up the engine right?

Fuel and wear and tear. The squad vehicle can always respond directly to the scene and hook up with the engine on scene if the engine is needed. If it increases the time too much to do this, then either the station or where the shopping is occurring at are obviously too far away from a central portion of the response district.

 

[WuLabsWuTecH]

If the parking lot is so congested that you can't walk briskly out to an ambulance in an acceptable time frame, then it's too congested to egress the ambulance in a timely fashion and you shouldn't be parking in that lot for personal business.

Also, maybe it's because I'm blessed to be living in relatively warm weather year round, but I've never had a problem getting an engine to start, be it 50k miles or 300k miles.

Not necessarily, the entrance to the lot could be by the storefront. I can think of many lots where egress out of the lot in a vehicle is easier when parked in the fire lane.

And clearly you've never worked for a private ambulance company or a municipality that is strapped for cash!

This has to be location dependent, because in my experience when a fire lane is present it's because it's a part of a road feeding the parking lot, and not a dedicated "lane" so to speak. It's more of a strict "no parking" than a spot to park for emergency vehicles running personal errands.

Fuel and wear and tear. The squad vehicle can always respond directly to the scene and hook up with the engine on scene if the engine is needed. If it increases the time too much to do this, then either the station or where the shopping is occurring at are obviously too far away from a central portion of the response district.

It probably is location dependent. Most of the fire lanes i can think of are a shoulder or separate lane right in front of the building or next to a hydrant. Or it's an otherwise no parking zone that still fits a squad or engine.

So now you're running the engine and a squad vehicle? It seems like you're using more fuel to me. Of course I'm sure you're making a point i'm just not getting, but by adding a vehicle aren't you adding more wear and tear?

 

[EMSLaw]

We have some basic restrictions - if you want to go somewhere, your crew goes with you, and we're not allowed to leave town without the permission of the Duty Officer. Of course, if you want something from a spot out of town, and happen to stop for a few minutes at Taco Bell on the way back from the hospital, nobody is going to say anything. And since "town" is over 100 square miles, that's a lot of room to roam.

We're volunteer, but we run from our station. On slow nights, that can be a lot of time cooped up, and sometimes Angry Birds and Bejeweled just isn't cutting it anymore. Better to let the crew go out than deal with the ensuing property damage inside the building.

 

[WuLabsWuTecH]

Jeez! Our "Town" is 190 square miles but because of our 5 minute restiction we're basically limited to 20 square miles. Why would you ever need to leave town to find something to do?

 

[EMSLaw]

Jeez! Our "Town" is 190 square miles but because of our 5 minute restiction we're basically limited to 20 square miles. Why would you ever need to leave town to find something to do?

Usually? We don't leave town. There is a Five Guys the next town over, though, and sending someone to fetch back an order is sometimes tempting.

 

[JPINFV]

Not necessarily, the entrance to the lot could be by the storefront. I can think of many lots where egress out of the lot in a vehicle is easier when parked in the fire lane.

And clearly you've never worked for a private ambulance company or a municipality that is strapped for cash!

Well, the second place I worked at was strapped for cash, but it was also very new, very low call volume, so the units were still almost brand new. There might have been some issues in the billing department, but they were trying to build a company to last. The other company would run the heck out of the units (retirement age was 300k miles), but had a good enough in house maintenance program that very few of the units actually gave any real issues. The more I look back at my first company (30-40 unit regional IFT service) the more I realize that a lot of it was decently run compared to a lot of other services. I might have hated some of the units, but I never had to worry about the AC not working or the ambulance not starting.

It probably is location dependent. Most of the fire lanes i can think of are a shoulder or separate lane right in front of the building or next to a hydrant. Or it's an otherwise no parking zone that still fits a squad or engine.

Here's an example of the type of fire lane that I'm talking about:
http://g.co/maps/kwwpf
All of the red curb is labeled "fire lane."

...and yes, I've seen ambulances and engines parked in lanes like this, and it drives me crazy.

So now you're running the engine and a squad vehicle? It seems like you're using more fuel to me. Of course I'm sure you're making a point i'm just not getting, but by adding a vehicle aren't you adding more wear and tear?

It depends. If a fire department isn't running EMS calls, how high is their call volume? Unless they're spending all day doing inspections (which also doesn't need an engine), they're probably putting more miles on the units traveling for food or shopping than actually responding to car accidents and fires (including alarms). If they are doing EMS, then the vast majority of the calls do not need an engine, just a vehicle that can ferry a few bags and some people. If you add a squad and split the crew so that if the squad is out of the station the engineer stays behind to drive the engine to a fire or car accident, then the engine should be able to sit for most to all of the day in the station.

The only exception I can think of is a fire department that will send the closest resource regardless of how far out of its district it is, including if its in another city. Of course a lot of this has to do with the So. Cal. insanity of putting paramedics on engines and EMTs on private ambulances so that the paramedics can be drug half way across the county to the trauma center and the engine has to follow them in order to collect its crew.


Also, since we're talking about city size, the city I grew up in was 9 square miles and about 60k people. Two hospitals in town, which between them pretty much can handle everything but trauma (I know one is designated for stroke, and I think one of the two is a STEMI center). Two trauma centers are 10 miles away. Now give me a good reason why an engine is needed to go 10 miles out of town simply to play taxi cab for paramedics. It might sound petty, but I'd rather have an engine restricted to quarters when the vast vast majority of the calls do not need an engine than cut a fire fighter spot (I believe they are still running 4 on an engine).

 

[medicdan]

I'll throw my $.02 in. I don't see a problem with public-service departments going out and running brief errands in their response area-- because they are also familiarizing themselves with community buildings, citizens, etc, and unlike police we aren't expected to be proactive in seeking calls. As long as the above doesn't put gross wear and tear on the vehicles and you remain ready to take calls.
I work for a private service-- so what I do with my time and vehicle and between me and my supervisors/company owner, generally not the public unless we're disrupting them. I'll admit it, I went to Target yesterday for 10 minutes on a 12/24 hour shift, then got lunch at Panera. I parked the truck in the parking lot about 15 spaces from the store, and left my partner in the truck (with it on, because it was effing cold and company policy requires it to be on for Rx temps). It's simply not practical for either me or my partner to drag the drug box through Target with us so the truck could be off.
In this case, we weren't working a 911 contract, but an ALS transfer/SCT truck. We do some STAT transfers, but were less than a mile from our contract hospital and could get there quickly if we needed.

Sim, the real question is whether these errands are effecting response times (positively or negatively). My guess, not knowing your response area well is that it does as much good as potential harm, which is minimal. The reason SSM is rumored to work is because it cuts down on the time it takes you to get off the couch, into the truck and onto the road-- you remain there, and are moving based on perceived call trends. When running errands, you are on the road, and ready to respond quickly.

JP, doesn't the service you last worked for generally spend 3+ hours a time in Best Buy playing video games between calls?

I agree, however, about engines parked outside grocery stores. I just don't understand how that's economical or practical. OTOH, I don't understand engines and ladders at medicals, but that's a different topic.

 

[WuLabsWuTecH]

Well, the second place I worked at was strapped for cash, but it was also very new, very low call volume, so the units were still almost brand new. There might have been some issues in the billing department, but they were trying to build a company to last. The other company would run the heck out of the units (retirement age was 300k miles), but had a good enough in house maintenance program that very few of the units actually gave any real issues. The more I look back at my first company (30-40 unit regional IFT service) the more I realize that a lot of it was decently run compared to a lot of other services. I might have hated some of the units, but I never had to worry about the AC not working or the ambulance not starting.

Here's an example of the type of fire lane that I'm talking about:
http://g.co/maps/kwwpf
All of the red curb is labeled "fire lane."

...and yes, I've seen ambulances and engines parked in lanes like this, and it drives me crazy.
It depends. If a fire department isn't running EMS calls, how high is their call volume? Unless they're spending all day doing inspections (which also doesn't need an engine), they're probably putting more miles on the units traveling for food or shopping than actually responding to car accidents and fires (including alarms). If they are doing EMS, then the vast majority of the calls do not need an engine, just a vehicle that can ferry a few bags and some people. If you add a squad and split the crew so that if the squad is out of the station the engineer stays behind to drive the engine to a fire or car accident, then the engine should be able to sit for most to all of the day in the station.

The only exception I can think of is a fire department that will send the closest resource regardless of how far out of its district it is, including if its in another city. Of course a lot of this has to do with the So. Cal. insanity of putting paramedics on engines and EMTs on private ambulances so that the paramedics can be drug half way across the county to the trauma center and the engine has to follow them in order to collect its crew.


Also, since we're talking about city size, the city I grew up in was 9 square miles and about 60k people. Two hospitals in town, which between them pretty much can handle everything but trauma (I know one is designated for stroke, and I think one of the two is a STEMI center). Two trauma centers are 10 miles away. Now give me a good reason why an engine is needed to go 10 miles out of town simply to play taxi cab for paramedics. It might sound petty, but I'd rather have an engine restricted to quarters when the vast vast majority of the calls do not need an engine than cut a fire fighter spot (I believe they are still running 4 on an engine).

Yeah, there isn't a lot of space there is there?

We send an engine and a medic on all ALS calls for manpower. 2 man medic, 3 man engine during the day, 4 at night. With some stations running 17,000+ calls a year, it might take a couple of tries to get the shopping for the mess done!

I'll throw my $.02 in. I don't see a problem with public-service departments going out and running brief errands in their response area-- because they are also familiarizing themselves with community buildings, citizens, etc, and unlike police we aren't expected to be proactive in seeking calls. As long as the above doesn't put gross wear and tear on the vehicles and you remain ready to take calls.
I work for a private service-- so what I do with my time and vehicle and between me and my supervisors/company owner, generally not the public unless we're disrupting them. I'll admit it, I went to Target yesterday for 10 minutes on a 12/24 hour shift, then got lunch at Panera. I parked the truck in the parking lot about 15 spaces from the store, and left my partner in the truck (with it on, because it was effing cold and company policy requires it to be on for Rx temps). It's simply not practical for either me or my partner to drag the drug box through Target with us so the truck could be off.
In this case, we weren't working a 911 contract, but an ALS transfer/SCT truck. We do some STAT transfers, but were less than a mile from our contract hospital and could get there quickly if we needed.

Sim, the real question is whether these errands are effecting response times (positively or negatively). My guess, not knowing your response area well is that it does as much good as potential harm, which is minimal. The reason SSM is rumored to work is because it cuts down on the time it takes you to get off the couch, into the truck and onto the road-- you remain there, and are moving based on perceived call trends. When running errands, you are on the road, and ready to respond quickly.

JP, doesn't the service you last worked for generally spend 3+ hours a time in Best Buy playing video games between calls?

I agree, however, about engines parked outside grocery stores. I just don't understand how that's economical or practical. OTOH, I don't understand engines and ladders at medicals, but that's a different topic.

In the rural area I work in, it can be quicker for the truck that's already out and runing errands to respond. Remember that volunteers/part-timers are given 5 minutes to respond to the station. So if we are already out, we become first due since we'll be responding before the manpower even gets to the station.

 

[rescue1]

It depends. If a fire department isn't running EMS calls, how high is their call volume? Unless they're spending all day doing inspections (which also doesn't need an engine), they're probably putting more miles on the units traveling for food or shopping than actually responding to car accidents and fires (including alarms). If they are doing EMS, then the vast majority of the calls do not need an engine, just a vehicle that can ferry a few bags and some people. If you add a squad and split the crew so that if the squad is out of the station the engineer stays behind to drive the engine to a fire or car accident, then the engine should be able to sit for most to all of the day in the station.

Think about it from a PR standpoint though...if there's a call down the street from the shopping center that the car/utility is at, and they get there and have to sit around with their thumbs up their backsides, it's bad PR. Is it technically any different from them responding from the station? No, the engine will be there in the same time frame. But from the public perceptive, who don't realize what is going on, it seems like a huge problem.
A similar example is waiting to put your turnout gear on until you get on scene. It doesn't take any longer to attack a fire, since you'll leave the station faster, but to the public it looks bad. We had a neighboring county FD try this way back when and they got a huge number of complaints from the outraged citizens, to the point where they changed the SOGs back.

Wear on the truck sucks, but I think driving a mile or two down the street to park in front of an Acme is minor compared with all the emergency driving the FD does just to shut off what will turn out to be a malfunctioning smoke alarm. All within reason, of course--a ten minute shopping trip to get lunch and dinner supplies is one thing, spending 30 minutes with a tiller ladder in front of Men's Warehouse because someone needs a new suit is another.

Keep in mind, though, I just woke up and am slightly hungover

 

[Medic Tim]

Where I work we have to ask dispatch for permission to move anywhere. We are not to do any personal errands except getting food.

 

[WuLabsWuTecH]

Think about it from a PR standpoint though...if there's a call down the street from the shopping center that the car/utility is at, and they get there and have to sit around with their thumbs up their backsides, it's bad PR. Is it technically any different from them responding from the station? No, the engine will be there in the same time frame. But from the public perceptive, who don't realize what is going on, it seems like a huge problem.
A similar example is waiting to put your turnout gear on until you get on scene. It doesn't take any longer to attack a fire, since you'll leave the station faster, but to the public it looks bad. We had a neighboring county FD try this way back when and they got a huge number of complaints from the outraged citizens, to the point where they changed the SOGs back.

Wear on the truck sucks, but I think driving a mile or two down the street to park in front of an Acme is minor compared with all the emergency driving the FD does just to shut off what will turn out to be a malfunctioning smoke alarm. All within reason, of course--a ten minute shopping trip to get lunch and dinner supplies is one thing, spending 30 minutes with a tiller ladder in front of Men's Warehouse because someone needs a new suit is another.

Keep in mind, though, I just woke up and am slightly hungover

I am no firefighter, but I understand wearing those suits in the truck suck. Since the fire side of things around here are all volunteer, it actually does save time to get dressed first as you are waiting for manpower.

Where I work we have to ask dispatch for permission to move anywhere. We are not to do any personal errands except getting food.

In the city we mark dispatch as AOR (avaliable on radio) so they know why we aren't responding when they page the station but not put it out on the radio yet. In the rural area, they really don't care. With response times averaging 20 minutes and some up to 45-50 minutes, it just doesn't make that much of a difference.

 

[Shishkabob]

At my last agency, doing 24 hour shifts, we had to stay within our "city", but could do drive anywhere in it, and do anything in it, that we wanted, as long as our chute time was 30 seconds during the day, or 90 at night. Want to spend 2 hours walking around at Walmart? Just get to your truck in time. Granted the "city" was small, so it's not like you'd go too far.


At my new agency, we can go 1/4 of a mile from our post.

 

[JPINFV]

JP, doesn't the service you last worked for generally spend 3+ hours a time in Best Buy playing video games between calls?

Wait, there was a Best Buy over in the Framingham/Natick area?

Yep, but when I say, "Extremely slow" I mean exactly that. With only a handful of dialysis contracts and no facility contracts, there isn't any calls, or even a real possibility of calls, while the treatment is happening. Also, in general if we I was posting, then I would turn off the ambulance while waiting.