Young EMS Personnell

[eynonqrs]

Very few times do you see someone distinguish in EMS actually take part in EMS forums. Dr. Bledsoe every so often will sneak in some EMS forums, and a few known others but other than that most will not even waste their time with it.

Truthfully, when I describe my activeness with other professional peers at national and state level meetings I get questioned on why I continue or would even consider continuing? Yes, most of those that really do make the rules and laws EMS forums are usually have the opinion that EMS forums are considered a joke mainly filled with wanna be and poorly educated technicians. Yes, I am that active. I spend at least two to four hours a week either on conference calls or on Internet committee work on National topics and at least the same for local and State development. That is my job. I am a professional. Currently at this time I am reviewing page by page the new Paramedic curriculum/scope to ensure continuity for teaching. As well, reviewing at least three new Paramedic text book series that are to be released this fall covering the new scope. Remember, the new scope has no set objectives as the National wants us to mature and develop lesson plans alike other health care professionals that require formal education to teach. Do you see the trend here? Yes, they are proceeding without asking your opinion. At least I am informing you.

The reason I continue (yes,I do have thoughts to cease) I feel that it is a way to educate those entering EMS about their own profession. Just read all the b.s. and poor information that is continously dispersed on EMS forums. Rumors and speculations are wildly made without any substance and proof. Something that those in EMS are great to participate in.

When I first entered this site I was chastised harshly by many that posted because it was simply was filled by mainly volunteer and whackers. Little to no discussion was made about patient care and definitely no promotion of increasing EMS education. I have stuck through EMS forums alike some of my peers and actually see some change their education values and change within their professional activities. So the reason I stay is I see some benefits of educating per EMS forums even if it just affects just one person.

I am not against volunteer EMS when it is a necessity and necessary. Yes, there are some areas that will have to depend upon these wonderful people. I do believe however; the majority of the time that it is not the case or reason. We can review how volunteer lobbying has and continues to try to lower educational standards. How it was volunteers that promoted diluting standards and educational methods. So yes in fact, volunteers has hampered and caused problems within EMS. The same as those that do not want to promote this as a viable profession, when in fact it has been demonstrated that it can be. This has even been in areas without causing financial burden to the citizens alike other public agencies.

The topic was about youth participating in EMS activities. It is ludicrous for us to acclaim that we want to be a profession yet to promote to have children participate in the delivery of our professional care. Should we have programs to educate the youth or encourage those with interest in EMS? A definite yes! However these should without direct exposure and contact of patients. There is a reason why hospitals do not use youth for direct patient care. They recognize the potential dangers of the psyche, unknown exposures of contaminants such as MRSA, VRSA, HIV, and dangers of the unknown.

We discuss daily of the dangers of this job. Yet, we want to expose youth to this? Can you say double standards? The risks of physical assault and even the discussion of a Paramedic that was shot and killed. What if this was a junior member instead? What do you tell the family? At least the Paramedic was of age to be able to make an informed and logical decision to be there. It was not solely based upon the notion of this looks neat and I hope to do this some day ideas. It is unfortunate, but one thing that has changed is the environment we work in. It is dangerous. Albeit from bacteria, viral diseases to the crazy, insane attempting to harm or kill us. Even though they may have passed the minimal certification level does this justify us exposing them to such dangers at a great magnitude?

I want to know, what is your basis that volunteers lower training standards ? You aren't pulling the wool over my eyes. I am required to do my con ed, my haz mat, etc., just like the paid services need to do. My volunteer service also does vehicle rescue, water rescue, and we run a quick response service. A-lot of out members are trained very well. As far as the danger side, yeah we live in a dangerous world, but you can't tell me that there is occupations out there that have minimal risk: EVERY OCCUPATION HAS A RISK. Maybe some not as great as others. It seems like you are trying to discourage young people in general from even considering EMS. Let me tell you something else here, volunteer ems are just as professional as paid services. I take offense that is just a rush. It doesn't matter if you are paid or volunteer, we are here for the community, not for self gratification. I don't regret any of the 17+ years that I am involved with the volunteer ems. And exactly what has volunteers caused problems for EMS ? Here we go again. I love how people try to discourage others, it makes me sick. I was bitten by the EMS bug because my father and uncle ran for a volunteer service when I was a kid. I got a job for a paid ambulance service because of my experience and because of the reputation of the company. Before you people continue to bash and discourage, think before you post. Put you self in someone else's shoes. The areas of where EMS is provided varies due to many factors.

 

[daedalus]

I want to know, what is your basis that volunteers lower training standards ? You aren't pulling the wool over my eyes. I am required to do my con ed, my haz mat, etc., just like the paid services need to do. My volunteer service also does vehicle rescue, water rescue, and we run a quick response service. A-lot of out members are trained very well. As far as the danger side, yeah we live in a dangerous world, but you can't tell me that there is occupations out there that have minimal risk: EVERY OCCUPATION HAS A RISK. Maybe some not as great as others. It seems like you are trying to discourage young people in general from even considering EMS. Let me tell you something else here, volunteer ems are just as professional as paid services. I take offense that is just a rush. It doesn't matter if you are paid or volunteer, we are here for the community, not for self gratification. I don't regret any of the 17+ years that I am involved with the volunteer ems. And exactly what has volunteers caused problems for EMS ? Here we go again. I love how people try to discourage others, it makes me sick. I was bitten by the EMS bug because my father and uncle ran for a volunteer service when I was a kid. I got a job for a paid ambulance service because of my experience and because of the reputation of the company. Before you people continue to bash and discourage, think before you post. Put you self in someone else's shoes. The areas of where EMS is provided varies due to many factors.

YOUR NOT LISTENING! Lol!

I want an associates degree to be entry level, and MANDATORY for practice. College costs money, time, and opportunity cost. There are VERY FEW people that will complete tens of thousands of dollars worth of education, that took them at the very least two years, in which they could not work full time, who will work for free! Since volunteer EMS cannot afford to obtain college level education in emergency medicine, they will advocate against it, there for inflicting wounds IN US ALL.

 

[Ridryder911]

I want to know, what is your basis that volunteers lower training standards ? You aren't pulling the wool over my eyes. I am required to do my con ed, my haz mat, etc., just like the paid services need to do. My volunteer service also does vehicle rescue, water rescue, and we run a quick response service. A-lot of out members are trained very well. As far as the danger side, yeah we live in a dangerous world, but you can't tell me that there is occupations out there that have minimal risk: EVERY OCCUPATION HAS A RISK. Maybe some not as great as others. It seems like you are trying to discourage young people in general from even considering EMS. Let me tell you something else here, volunteer ems are just as professional as paid services. I take offense that is just a rush. It doesn't matter if you are paid or volunteer, we are here for the community, not for self gratification. I don't regret any of the 17+ years that I am involved with the volunteer ems. And exactly what has volunteers caused problems for EMS ? Here we go again. I love how people try to discourage others, it makes me sick. I was bitten by the EMS bug because my father and uncle ran for a volunteer service when I was a kid. I got a job for a paid ambulance service because of my experience and because of the reputation of the company. Before you people continue to bash and discourage, think before you post. Put you self in someone else's shoes. The areas of where EMS is provided varies due to many factors.

No wool just facts! In 1990 the lobbying from volunteer agencies actually obtained the curriculum to be "watered down" so that in light that recruiting and numbers would not drop down of volunteers. Don't believe me? Ever heard of the Montana studies, or others similar and then compare the depthness of text prior and after 1990? Alike now many the same groups attempted to change the new scope (2008) as they see it would be the death to volunteers as the new EMT courses will require more additional hours and that EMT's attend a required transitional course to maintain their status. Fortunately, there were enough educated professionals to prevent this from happening. We will see how many "dedicated souls" there are left as the course lengthen and become more intense.

Do you think those of us in EMS that actually take patient care serious er want to continue to utilize and teach from a text book written for basic EMT at 6'th grade reading level? Even worse for Paramedics at a 10'th grade level? How embarrassing that it all can be diluted enough to be included into one text! I can assure you not to blame the educational system associated with academics! We are used to teaching medicine.

Do you really care for medicine enough to obtain a formal education in it? (Please notice I did not say training for there IS a big difference). You are so concerned that you attempted to find another option for the community to see if they could find funding for a professional EMS or just wanted the lights sirens because of tradition. Well, in many places tradition is killing people by not offering quality care. Please explain that to those that aspirated or needed to be cardioverted.

Does your service offer 24 hour ALS emergency response within 8 minutes without all those lights upon POV's? Or does it offer less care to your community than Johnny & Roy did 30+ years ago? Alike I said, not all volunteer agencies are bad. For those in remote areas; I honor but it those that can and could offer that will not all because of self loathe ego's. They much rather attempt to play medic to feel good about themselves than to actually be sensitive enough to find options to ensure in the public best behalf.

When I discuss with volunteers, it is amazing that I never find those to volunteer to be a dog catcher, or mow the yard at the courthouse or city hall. Seems to me that if they were really that concerned about the community and their citizens, they would give their time to no matter what the cause might be and even find funding to have a formal EMS. Not just volunteer in the areas with l/s.

I never said it was not dangerous to any of the persons involved with EMS. Even far more the reason not to have amateurs. Do you train everyday on shift and work enough call volume to maintain those skills? Then if you do; you could afford and need full time....right?

I have never been against first response companies as being EMT's for that is all they need to be. At this time it nothing more than initial first aid; but don't disguise yourself as EMS or being in medicine. As I have always contended MFR have a very important role and should adhere to that role. EMS is about medicine, not rescue, fire suppression or even public safety as NONE of those areas are formally taught within the prescribe scope of education. We are NOT public safety; we are MEDICAL.

 

[eynonqrs]

Do you think those of us in EMS that actually take patient care serious er want to continue to utilize and teach from a text book written for basic EMT at 6'th grade reading level? Even worse for Paramedics at a 10'th grade level? How embarrassing that it all can be diluted enough to be included into one text! I can assure you not to blame the educational system associated with academics! We are used to teaching medicine.

Do you really care for medicine enough to obtain a formal education in it? (Please notice I did not say training for there IS a big difference). You are so concerned that you attempted to find another option for the community to see if they could find funding for a professional EMS or just wanted the lights sirens because of tradition. Well, in many places tradition is killing people by not offering quality care. Please explain that to those that aspirated or needed to be cardioverted.

Does your service offer 24 hour ALS emergency response within 8 minutes without all those lights upon POV's? Or does it offer less care to your community than Johnny & Roy did 30+ years ago? Alike I said, not all volunteer agencies are bad. For those in remote areas; I honor but it those that can and could offer that will not all because of self loathe ego's. They much rather attempt to play medic to feel good about themselves than to actually be sensitive enough to find options to ensure in the public best behalf.

When I discuss with volunteers, it is amazing that I never find those to volunteer to be a dog catcher, or mow the yard at the courthouse or city hall. Seems to me that if they were really that concerned about the community and their citizens, they would give their time to no matter what the cause might be and even find funding to have a formal EMS. Not just volunteer in the areas with l/s.

I never said it was not dangerous to any of the persons involved with EMS. Even far more the reason not to have amateurs. Do you train everyday on shift and work enough call volume to maintain those skills? Then if you do; you could afford and need full time....right?

I have never been against first response companies as being EMT's for that is all they need to be. At this time it nothing more than initial first aid; but don't disguise yourself as EMS or being in medicine. As I have always contended MFR have a very important role and should adhere to that role. EMS is about medicine, not rescue, fire suppression or even public safety as NONE of those areas are formally taught within the prescribe scope of education. We are NOT public safety; we are MEDICAL.

Well let me answer some questions here:

1) ALS services in my county are provied by private services, and are on scene within 7 to 10 minutes. Hospitals in our area are only 5 to 15 min away, and we have 5 of them in the county. But here we go again, just beacause we have blue lights on our POV's we are wackers and low lifes.

2) We could not afford to have a 24/7 paid service, our call volume is only about 500 calls per year. We are a viable service and we do have the staff and resources to provide excellent care to our community. We are not rookies and we don't kill people. VOLUNTEER OR PAID, WE ARE SERVANT'S TO THE PUBLIC, AND OUR RESPECT FROM THE PUBLIC IS THE WAY THAT WE PRESENT OURSELVES TO THEM ------ IT DOES NOT MATTER VOLUNTEER OR PAID WE ARE PROFESSIONALS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3) And you betcha, there are people in my squad that do more than just volunteer for the ambulance, they are also volunteer firefighters, volunteer for thier church, are scout leaders, care for the elderly. We have pride for our community.

 

[Sasha]

VOLUNTEER OR PAID, WE ARE SERVANT'S TO THE PUBLIC, AND OUR RESPECT FROM THE PUBLIC IS THE WAY THAT WE PRESENT OURSELVES TO THEM ------ IT DOES NOT MATTER VOLUNTEER OR PAID WE ARE PROFESSIONALS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

Just a side note, when you type in all caps like that, it is taken as "yelling" and your credibility goes way down. I personally don't take "yellers" seriously.

 

[Hockey]

Since I'm lazy and uh...lazy

Can someone give me a summary whats going on in this thread?

Thanks

 

[Veneficus]

EMS is about medicine, not rescue, fire suppression or even public safety as NONE of those areas are formally taught within the prescribe scope of education. We are NOT public safety; we are MEDICAL.

But by not ascribing to public safety, you preclude EMS providers from public retirement, death and disability benefits.

By constantly excluding EMS you isolate the public good will towards it. I agree with you about what is not taught in the education, but that is part of the change that must be made.

The idea there are "medical" providers who cannot treat all medical problems and not just "emergencies" is absolutely faulty. A highly educated ride to higher levels of care is not worth the money. (as much as I would like a higher level of education)

Not even PAs have a national scope of practice. I am not a legal expert, but I remember learning that those powers not expressed in the constitution for the federal government are delegated to the states. The only loophole I can see is a public safety or public health agency. Unless you are willing to accept a national medical program, EMS cannot have it both ways.

As well, if you exclude public safety, you are excluding all forms of rescue and you will wind up with providers standing around waiting for patients with other agencies needing to always use some kind of tool or device to justify their budget. Unless you are going to train (not educate) EMS providers to do this. There would be a battle to end all battles to enact that.

There also comes the question of billing and renumeration. If tax dollars support EMS that is a form of socialized medicine if EMS is medical. An inefficent socialized medical system that delivers you to a private medical system? Sounds highly flawed to me.

Hard choices to be made, but if you exclude "public" and go only with "medical" you could quickly find yourself in a pay to play environment. Places that cannot afford to staff "medical" providers will also strongly reject what you are proposing they lose. If it becomes an all private system, because places cannot afford "medical" and the price that comes with, you also risk losing the levels of burdon of proof that public safety forces bring with it against lawsuits.

The more that is excluded, the harder time you will have trying to convince the public they want to pay for it.

 

[Ridryder911]

I don't think there has to be an exclusion there could be an addition to the current legislation. Public health departments have such benefits and never are regarded as within the safety division. Their focus is within the medical field although parts of it is in the public domain. They may even have more powers than those within the public safety.

We are much more closer to that realm of service than in the safety division. While reviewing there is no mention of public safety (other than the normal common knowledge) in any of old or new curriculum/scope of education. There is however; chapters of Public Health, even epidemiology and basic statistics, as well as in depths of modes of diseases in the new scope of education. Even the teaching on triage is based upon CDC's triage system not the traditional old rescue and EMS methods.

Many of the EMS programs have totally removed extrication and rescue from their programs. The reason many EMS does not provide such services and that itself is a speciality.

Even public health departments and government funded hospitals can be based upon payment structures. Some services fees are based upon salary ranges. However; alike any other medical institution should we not be able to charge for services? Even non-profit, community hospitals can and do charge for services.

In regards to being a volunteer.. Too many fail to recognize the difference of acting professional and being a professional. I volunteer in within my Church Missionary. I might act professionally however; this does not mean I am a professional missionary. These implications and definitions are far from being closely related to each other.

R/r911

 

[daedalus]

Just a side note, when you type in all caps like that, it is taken as "yelling" and your credibility goes way down. I personally don't take "yellers" seriously.

Plus five. Caps lock is considered yelling, and is generally bad form.

 

[eynonqrs]

Many of the EMS programs have totally removed extrication and rescue from their programs. The reason many EMS does not provide such services and that itself is a speciality.

In regards to being a volunteer.. Too many fail to recognize the difference of acting professional and being a professional. I volunteer in within my Church Missionary. I might act professionally however; this does not mean I am a professional missionary. These implications and definitions are far from being closely related to each other.

R/r911

Well, for my squad that I volunteer with we do hold ourselves to a high standard. We have by-laws that we enforce to the letter. Some dosen't make the cut or screws up they get suspended or kicked out (volley term for fired), just like anyone that would be employed. Our community respects us for what we do, our squad has been going for 50+ years. If we didn't hold up to a standard, then we would not be still going. I have seen volunteer squads fold due to lack of volunteers, poor management, etc... You need to manage a volunteer company just like a business. It seems like some of you think a volunteer unit is run like a 3 ring circus, it is not. We have guidelines, training requirements, just like a paid service does. Our squad was started as an "Ambulance and Rescue Squad" as we still do today. Having cross trained members is a wonderful resource, and everyone is on the same page and everything runs smooth. I can say that I am proud to be a volunteer, to have a blue light, to be a public servant for 17 years and counting. I plan on doing this until I can't do it.

 

[CAOX3]

I understand the reasoning behind the grudge against volunteers.

I dont understand the berating of them. They are street level providers as all of us are. This is an infrastructure problem not a provider problem. Its easy to state that if they just stopped showing up their communities would just have paid providers is ridiculous. They will just cover the areas with existent mutual aid which just creates another problem. Stripping a bordering town of its EMS providers is not the answer. As we all know EMS is time sensitive extending a response time to 20 minutes isn't a rationale or acceptible decision.

I'm sure their standards are just as stringent as paid providers, the fact that they do the same job as me for little or no compensation. They deserve our respect, would you do it? I dont think I would. I applaud them.

 

[Veneficus]

I don't think there has to be an exclusion there could be an addition to the current legislation. Public health departments have such benefits and never are regarded as within the safety division. Their focus is within the medical field although parts of it is in the public domain. They may even have more powers than those within the public safety.

I think public health is the way to go, but there has been a lot of resistance everytime I have suggested such.

We are much more closer to that realm of service than in the safety division. While reviewing there is no mention of public safety (other than the normal common knowledge) in any of old or new curriculum/scope of education. There is however; chapters of Public Health, even epidemiology and basic statistics, as well as in depths of modes of diseases in the new scope of education. Even the teaching on triage is based upon CDC's triage system not the traditional old rescue and EMS methods. .

Sounds great

Many of the EMS programs have totally removed extrication and rescue from their programs. The reason many EMS does not provide such services and that itself is a speciality. .

I also agree it is a specialty itself, but since I am a firm believer that the point of rescue is patient care, I would say that the principles of care in an austere environment is core to what would make EMS its own profession.

Even public health departments and government funded hospitals can be based upon payment structures. Some services fees are based upon salary ranges. However; alike any other medical institution should we not be able to charge for services? Even non-profit, community hospitals can and do charge for services..

Yes EMS should be able to charge, but the problem is who is going to pay and how much? We know healthcare financing in the US has to change, everyone I speak too agrees that prehospital transport is likely to take a huge cut. Which is why I advocate a public health role for EMS, but the industry itself doesn't seem to want it. Is there a plan to go about changing the culture in already established agencies?

 

[medic417]

Well let me answer some questions here:


2) We could not afford to have a 24/7 paid service, our call volume is only about 500 calls per year. We are a viable service and we do have the staff and resources to provide excellent care to our community. We are not rookies and we don't kill people. VOLUNTEER OR PAID, WE ARE SERVANT'S TO THE PUBLIC, AND OUR RESPECT FROM THE PUBLIC IS THE WAY THAT WE PRESENT OURSELVES TO THEM ------ IT DOES NOT MATTER VOLUNTEER OR PAID WE ARE PROFESSIONALS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

500 calls a year is more than enough to require paid 24/7 ALS ambulances. I am involved with several 24/7 ALS services under 500 calls a year. The station I am at today is less than 200 calls a year in a poverty stricken rural area. Number of calls does not justify not paying. Priorities of the community need to be checked and money would be found. And we are Pre Hospital Medical Professionals not public servants.

 

[medic417]

Hello all,
I'm new to the forum so if something like this was posted I apologize. I'm the EMS Capt for a very small town BLS ambulance. We average 400 or so calls a year, all of which are 911 based. I'm 19 years old and I'm taking on my second year as EMS Capt and my 2 Lieutenants are 18 and 19 as well. I was wondering if there are other companies out there that have a young crew like ours. We experience a lot of bashing because of our ages and the types of positions we hold from people who have been involved in EMS for many many years. Their philosophy is that they have been doing this for longer than we've been born so we cant possibly know what were doing and that our patient care cant be good either. We've had no bad reports from hospitals in or our area as far as patient care and the same goes for the ALS providers we work with. It's just very disappointing, for me especially, when you or your crew gets bashed and your the guy responsible for keeping them up to par. I'm looking for any insight on this or if anybody has had a similar problem. Thanks - Brian

No need for Capts. Lts etc in such a small service. If your people are not able to take responsibility to check their ambulances daily and to give proper care they should be fired, not have someone standing around giving orders. This title crap is not a part of Pre Hospital Medical Professionals but a left over part of fire influence that needs to disappear.

As to age I think a person needs to be older to be in EMS and when education standards go up we will see minimum ages go up as well.

 

[Ridryder911]

I would like to ask the younger members (<18) of what type of insurance they are covered by? If the organization they belong to have medical malpractice and personal coverage or they assume the organization they are riding for will be covering them? Also, if they are required to have their parents sign a waiver of release while riding? As well, if their parents recognize the potential of litigation in civil suit if they are involved in a case?

Thanks,

R/r 911

 

[NJN]

Both of the services I am a member of have malpractice insurance for all certified providers regardless of age as long as they are acting within protocols.

My parents do realize the potential litigation that can happen as my mother has been an attorney in some malpractice suits.

Waivers of release are required for all riding members.

 

[daedalus]

Well, for my squad that I volunteer with we do hold ourselves to a high standard. We have by-laws that we enforce to the letter. Some dosen't make the cut or screws up they get suspended or kicked out (volley term for fired), just like anyone that would be employed. Our community respects us for what we do, our squad has been going for 50+ years. If we didn't hold up to a standard, then we would not be still going. I have seen volunteer squads fold due to lack of volunteers, poor management, etc... You need to manage a volunteer company just like a business. It seems like some of you think a volunteer unit is run like a 3 ring circus, it is not. We have guidelines, training requirements, just like a paid service does. Our squad was started as an "Ambulance and Rescue Squad" as we still do today. Having cross trained members is a wonderful resource, and everyone is on the same page and everything runs smooth. I can say that I am proud to be a volunteer, to have a blue light, to be a public servant for 17 years and counting. I plan on doing this until I can't do it.

Would your squad uphold mandatory college education for those touching patients? If not, the standard is not that high.

 

[Ridryder911]

Both of the services I am a member of have malpractice insurance for all certified providers regardless of age as long as they are acting within protocols.

My parents do realize the potential litigation that can happen as my mother has been an attorney in some malpractice suits.

Waivers of release are required for all riding members.

Thanks for your response, I do find it odd they would have malpractice insurance (even more surprised an major Insurance corporation would cover as most Ihave found requires minimum of age 18) and then sign a release? . .

R/r 911

 

[April992]

I absolutly know what you are going through. I have worked in the EMS field for 4 years. I look like I am about 15 years old and am 5"2' (I'm 23). Both the people I work with, either at a new facility or on transfers and pts alike think that I am an "observer" or can't possibly know what I am doing. I even went to the length of colouring my natural blonde hair to dark brown to be taken more seriously in an attempt to look older (it did not work). Although, they generally don't say it to my face you can see it in their eyes. The only thing I can tell you is to prove them wrong. Help them and show them that you know what you're doing. Pts generally won't know how old you are (even if you look young) so take everything with a grain of salt and trudge through it, you'll gain years quickly (and wrinkles) so don't sweat the small stuff! Enjoy your job and continue doing what you do best!

 

[Shishkabob]

Thanks for your response, I do find it odd they would have malpractice insurance (even more surprised an major Insurance corporation would cover as most Ihave found requires minimum of age 18) and then sign a release? . .

R/r 911

Any good lawyer or criminal law professor will tell you that a release means absolutely nothing and can be torn apart quite easily.


Strange, I know, but true.