Were they justified?

[reaper]

Sasha,

First, you did right by requesting lifting assistance for this pt. Even if they had the two biggest men in the service there, that is to much weight to lift safely by two people.

Second, You were wrong in the radio response. You must remain professional at all times. No matter how frustrated you get. You should have worked your way up the ladder of supervisors, until you got what you needed.

This is a private transport company. They do not care about you or the pt. They care about the bottom dollar. You need to learn to work within their system or get out now. They will not change the way they do things, so you must adjust.

Try getting a tech job at the ED, until you finish medic school. Then you can try for a 911 job. Private IFT's will always treat you the way they want, EMT's are a dime a dozen and they don't care how they treat you.

So, take in all the advise people have given you and make some hard decisions!

 

[Airwaygoddess]

With each call that you run you will have a lesson learned. I agree with keeping you,your partner and the patient safe. What you say and how you say is also an ongoing lesson when working with people.

 

[BossyCow]

I agree that you are justified in refusing to put yourself and your partner in physical danger. If you are unable to life safely, then you cannot, by any protocol I know of, attempt to lift the patient. (See Scene Safety) What good would it to have done for you to try and end up hurt, with the patient still untransported?

That said, there are a lot of ways to 'refuse'. You also need to learn how to choose your battles. You can fight being sent home. You can win that battle and lose your job. You can be right about what you said and wrong in how you said it. Think about the way you 'communicated' your frustration to dispatch. Was your primary goal in the communication to get assistance or to let them know how ticked you were?

Diplomacy comes harder to some of us than it does to others.

 

[artman17847]

I will toss in my 2 cents...

Mostly I have to agree with eveyone in regards to being professional at all times. As painful as it may be, you must be respectful to your supervisors.

I will agree with you about lifting this pt. I don't think it's right for these companys to force thier employees to do things that are beyond the margin of safety.

I have a very good friend who was permenantly disabled when he and his partner were refused help for a large pt. While they were attempting to get the litter inside the truck the litter became hung up and the strecher suddenly tilted to the right. My buddy grabbed the litter to keep it from falling and twisted his back like a pretzel and now he has two spinal fusions in his lumbar and cervical spine.

 

[ATHEISTMEDIC]

Private sucks, period!

 

[daedalus]

By the way, we don't do IFT well fare checks unless it's to a private residence in the ghetto They wanted to know why we were taking so long.

Your original post sounds like any Los Angeles frakin transport company.
I HATE dispatchers.

Like JP and KEV said, your back is not worth a schedule or response times for non emergency transportation.

 

[Sasha]

Couple points. I work at a company that does both 911 and IFT, I prefer IFT.

Second, these were NOT my supervisors, it was a dispatcher, who is NOT my superior. Third, it wasn't just three times being denied, it was multiple calls "Hey, we really can't lift him." "We really could use that lift assist" "I don't feel we can safely lift." "Since you can't send anyone, can we call out the FD Non emergency to help us?" "He can't stand. He's too heavy for us to lift. We need help." "The staff said they aren't allowed to help us, we need a lift assist. You just cleared unit so and so from the hospital down the road, can't they come help us?"

Perhaps it was inappropiate, yes, but we were really irritated at that point, and the dispatcher's tone when asking for our status was very... rude. Professionalism and courtesy should be a two way street, not a one way.

And a higher up is writing the dispatcher up for denying us a lift assist.

And lastly, I wasn't going to appeal being sent home, I was just annoyed by the fact I was. It's a long drive to work. And I asked for feed back on the what happened, not for people to start telling me what they think about me. (And I'm sorry if you find it arrogant, but I don't see how being confident translates into arrogance.)

 

[Sasha]

And yes, I do have an easy going, quirky, cheerful and lighthearted approach to things. Patients love my style and so do most nurses. One lady requests me to be sent specifically to take her to dialysis when I'm on shift.

 

[Veneficus]

(And I'm sorry if you find it arrogant, but I don't see how being confident translates into arrogance.)

Confidence is knowing how to win, arrogance is believing you cannot lose. B)

 

[Tincanfireman]

Lots of good points and opinions being brought to light in this thread. To answer Sasha's OP; yes you were absolutely correct to request an assist and your dispatcher was absolutely wrong in denying the request. OTOH, I'd have gone to my supervisor via landline and explained the situation in greater detail rather than taking it up over the air. Good on you for protecting your safety and your patient's welfare, though I have to also agree that the time may soon be coming to cast your nets and look for a different place to work. Any company or agency that allows dispatchers to endanger the safety of crewmembers isn't the kind of place I'd want to work for, but that's my personal .02. Hopefully this incident will bring issues to light that can be resolved to the benefit of all.

 

[JPINFV]

Second, these were NOT my supervisors, it was a dispatcher, who is NOT my superior. Third, it wasn't just three times being denied, it was multiple calls "Hey, we really can't lift him." "We really could use that lift assist" "I don't feel we can safely lift." "Since you can't send anyone, can we call out the FD Non emergency to help us?" "He can't stand. He's too heavy for us to lift. We need help." "The staff said they aren't allowed to help us, we need a lift assist. You just cleared unit so and so from the hospital down the road, can't they come help us?"

Yes, your dispatcher isn't your superior when it comes to clinical judgment. Dispatchers are the masters of which unit goes where when though.

Quick question, was all of that over the radio? There comes a point when two way radio becomes a poor means of communication and at that point you should switch to a cell phone call to dispatch. Also, did you attempt to get a lift assist through alternative means such as your crew chief?

 

[JonTullos]

Glad that the dispatcher is being written up, Sasha. It's totally inappropriate for him/her to continue sending units to other transports (I'm assuming non-emergency since you indicated this was inter-facility) knowing that you and your partner needed help.

I'm inclined to agree with some others that have said maybe now's a time to put some feelers out. Doesn't sound like a company that you'd want to stay at.

Hope your weekend gets better!

Jon

 

[Laur68EMT]

Part of what happened to you (the thing you are asking for feedback on) I feel is a direct result of your arrogance which is clearly part of your day to day life, hence my reason for pointing it out to begin with. An example of confusing arrogance and confidence can be seen in your sig file, where you feel it’s necessary to tag each post with a sexual remark suggesting excessive pride in oneself. That is arrogance not confidence, Sasha. Confident people have no need to make such assertions. Again, I find such things to be haughty and inappropriate behavior at any age, in any medium and I maintain it has no zero place in EMS. Furthermore, it should also be noted that the “EMS eye candy” comment is little more than an opinion and certainly not shared by all. But, because you put it out there with such obvious conviction, I am forced to conclude it bleeds over to other areas of your life as well. This arrogance, over confidence and insolence can be heard in an EMS radio transmission and a bellyache over being reprimanded for it. (Are they really justified in sending me home for this???)

Arrogance is further demonstrated here by an inability to handle the feedback you asked for with grace and without further justifying your actions. Your egotism, coupled with your youth is getting in the way of clear thinking, again. Asking if it’s okay that you were sent home based on what you said while on the job is just a no-brainer to the rest of us. What you said was out of line, period. The fact you felt justified in saying it to begin with goes back to (you guessed it), arrogance.

You asked for feedback. Responses contain criticisms based on what you described in your initial post. Your “personality” and lack of professionalism got you in some hot water, and rightfully so. Everyone gets frustrated and tested to the limits in EMS - we all make mistakes but, it’s how we learn from them that truly shows our commitment to our own improvement. I’m not asking you to agree with me. I’m suggesting you consider what is being said. Think about how you are being viewed by others, here and in the field.

In closing, I noticed you’ve replaced your own picture with a new avatar. The short bus window licker/proud rider of the short bus avatar is highly offensive to me. I’m sure that doesn’t come as a surprise to you though. My nephew, Jeremy rode the “short bus.” He’s 24 now. I cannot count the ways he has blessed our family with his own unique challenges and vision. He has a simplistic way about him that reminds me daily of the truly important things in life. He is pure in his love, his intentions and his devotion to family. He recently had a seizure while walking across the living room at 10 o‘clock at night, right in front of his parents. It scared the Hell out of them as you can well imagine. They live in the next town over and the squad who responded had no idea he was our nephew (several in my family are in EMS). He is extremely hard of hearing, and as a result, his speech is very difficult to understand but the responding crew did a phenomenal job. They treated Jeremy with every ounce of compassion and respect any patient should receive. I maintain those people are in EMS for the right reasons. I cannot tell you how proud I am to cross paths with them regularly, to pick them up for intercepts when we need it, to know they are our EBR when we get shorthanded ourselves. I am comforted knowing they are the ones who will respond to my brother’s family whenever the call goes out without hesitation and without prejudice.

 

[Code 3]

In closing, I noticed you’ve replaced your own picture with a new avatar. The short bus window licker/proud rider of the short bus avatar is highly offensive to me.

Well said, Laur68EMT. I tend to agree with you and was also offended after seeing the following reply in a different thread:

Not that I know everything, but I wasn't gonna ride around feeling like a helmet wearing short bus rider.

I believe these types of references are inappropriate and even more so coming from someone in the EMS profession.

 

[Onceamedic]

Well put Laur68EMT. My response to Sasha was out of a genuine desire to help her. Her snotty answer back told me that my initial instinct to not reply to her posts had, in fact, been correct. Get over yourself young lady.

 

[Veneficus]

Some perspective

A newer member of the EMS profession said something inappropriate over the radio. It is definitely not the first time, it will definitely not be the last.

I do not know Sasha or anything about her other than she got sent home for a comment and she got bit by a patient. Oh and that she didn’t read her SOPs and regulations book either.

This was the first post I read on this forum, and I have to say I thought it was hilarious. Inappropriate unquestionably, but still funny. It is common parlance among the people I call peers to get a bit cynical and say something along the lines of: “A patients ability to survive a grievous wound is inversely proportionate to their value to society.” Or “This fine upstanding contributor to society was probably just minding his own business, returning his library books when he was the victim of an unwarranted attack by the notorious “2 dudes.” Psychologists call it dark humor.

If Sasha wants to debase herself a little with her avatar and comment, so what? Will some be insulted? Probably, somebody says something I don’t like every day. (usually on an EMS forum) Besides, somebody on a short school bus wearing a helmet is probably safer than the kids not wearing a helmet or a seat belt on the regular school bus. (kind of makes you wonder doesn’t it?)

Arrogance: I have already posted my comment about the difference, but every EMT, firefighter, paramedic, nurse and physician I have met had to struggle with that at one time or another. (some are still not over it) making attacks about it doesn’t cause it to balance out any quicker.

Who was right and who was wrong? Both Sasha and the dispatcher were both wrong. Assigning blame after the fact is pointless, it accomplishes nothing. But again not understanding each others’ roles is something we all deal with everyday. Through experience (making mistakes) we learn to be better at it.

Ethics: It is part of professional behavior to instill what is acceptable of our peers. But how we do it matters. It should be educational, not derogatory. Name calling and telling people to get over themselves is not professional either. We are all peers, some junior, some senior, some mentors, some antagonists, but we are not the defenders of the true faith or parents of our peers. (unless you adopted them, have some agreed upon fictive kinship, or they are biologically yours)

Some people react differently to criticism, we should be aware of the potential reactions, and allow for them. We have some shared values, but not all. I think anyone who measures a provider by how much or their ability to lift qualifies as Homo Erectus and needs a job laying bricks not taking care of people. That is absolutely an ignorant measure of any healthcare professional. It doesn’t matter if it is a crew of ladies or a crew of muscle bound steroid taking body builders, asking for help is smart, not weakness.

I hope lessons were learned from this incident, behaviors changed, not many would even offer up they were sent home. It might have been a learning experience for those not involved.

BTW, I think it is comical it is always a “little old lady” who breaks her hip and falls. Because the little old guys don’t usually live long enough to do that too. Some are probably now thinking “can you believe he works in healthcare?” Yep, and I absolutely love doing it everyday, whether it is the multisystem trauma patient, the multiple late stage pathology pediatric medical case, The parasite infested septic homeless guy, or the drunk guy calling me names throwing his full urinal at me. Please try not to judge people on their humor.

Sorry for the long post, but I think this thread was getting out of hand.

 

[reaper]

I think this thread was just starting to go in the direction it needed to! It has been building up. I do not think anyone made a derogatory statement.

 

[Ridryder911]

What I believe is many is confusing "cockiness and confidence" . Arrogance is a total different attitude. One can be very confident, but that is displayed with being humble, pleasantry and self assurance because one know that they meet or exceed the requirements. In other words, are not worried about being intimidated. As many find out those that are arrogant or display cockiness are deep down easily intimidated.

In regards to the original posts, I see several views. The dispatch not performing their job. Second a person getting irritated at the situation, or an employee with a cocky attitude. Every once in a while; things will happen.... then if it is an re-occurrence it is a problem. Most supervisory personal tolerate a certain amount before taking action, if it was first time ... chalk it up on, now knowing what not to do.

R/r 911

 

[ffemt8978]

Closed per request of OP