Volunteer Fire Department Runs Over Victim

[medic417]

http://www.kwes.com/Global/story.asp?S=14273068

Volunteer fire department ran over a woman that had already been run over while responding to another call. Thought they ran over a dog.

While that department is not EMS it should serve as another reason to watch speed and the road even when running lights and sirens. Not saying they were not watching or that they were driving wrecklessly just using as a discussion to help us each consider how things can go wrong quickly.

 

[medic417]

http://www.cbs7.com/news/details.asp?ID=24318

"The West Odessa Volunteer Fire Department says they did drive over the woman accidentally and did not see her because it was so dark and she was wearing dark clothing.

They said it's likely she had already been killed from when she was hit by the first vehicle."

:unsure:

 

[abckidsmom]

Must have been pretty dark.

 

[18G]

Headlights must not have been working.

 

[CAOX3]

Its a pretty big leap to assume she was already dead.

If I did this in my personal vehicle I'm sure the police wouldn't assume she was already dead.

I did almost run someone over once. We were called to an assault when I pulled over and got out of the truck I almost stepped on this guys head. It was dark and he was laying in the gutter sleeping off his load on trash day another foot and he would have been mashed potatos.

 

[firetender]

Its a pretty big leap to assume she was already dead.

All it takes is one look. No fresh blood oozing from the corpse after vehicle 2 tells the story.

 

[usafmedic45]

All it takes is one look. No fresh blood oozing from the corpse after vehicle 2 tells the story.

Wrong.

 

[MrBrown]

They were running from this dude

 

[Aidey]

My EMTB instructor told us of a case that happened a number of years ago. A medium size plane that crashed in extremely foggy conditions and the responders hit bodies when driving on the runway to try and get to the scene. So I can see how it could happen in certain situations, but it does seem like they should have been paying more attention.

 

[CAOX3]

All it takes is one look. No fresh blood oozing from the corpse after vehicle 2 tells the story.

I'm assuming the person had only been hit minutes ago so in that respect their fresh, it would be almost impossible to determine which car delivered the fatal blow.

 

[usafmedic45]

My EMTB instructor told us of a case that happened a number of years ago. A medium size plane that crashed in extremely foggy conditions and the responders hit bodies when driving on the runway to try and get to the scene. So I can see how it could happen in certain situations, but it does seem like they should have been paying more attention.

I know of two cases where that has happened. What state was this in?

 

[usafmedic45]

I'm assuming the person had only been hit minutes ago so in that respect their fresh, it would be almost impossible to determine which car delivered the fatal blow.

It would be difficult as best but it might be possible, if you have a damn good scene investigation and a talented pathologist.

 

[firetender]

Wrong.

Well, don't just slap me on the wrist, edumacate me!

 

[usafmedic45]

Well, don't just slap me on the wrist, edumacate me!

OK....

1. Dead bodies can and do bleed....sort of. If you put pressure on an enclosed space-let's use the thigh for example- and the surface of the space tears, you're going to have the liquid contents of that space come out. This is what will happen as a tire passes over a leg. The same thing will happen if you have a wound where gravity can do its thing. This is why the bottom of the inside of body bags are often coated in blood even if the victim at the scene was relatively clean.
2. You can tell premortem injuries from post-mortem injuries at autopsy, but you have to know what you're looking at and I am willing to bet money none of the guys on that scene are pathologists, pathologist assistants or autopsy techs. Mostly it has to do with the difference in appearance of a perfused tissue at the time of trauma versus non-perfused and the resulting hemorrhage into the tissues.

 

[firetender]

OK....

1. Dead bodies can and do bleed....sort of.

First, thanks!

...and it's the "sort of" I'm referring to. Close inspection does show a few telltale signs, though I agree, it's the Pathologists call, so accept this as entertainment only!

If the heart's pumping in the moment of impact and there is a break in the integrity of the skin deep enough to nick blood vessels, the "halo" of blood around the affected area will be spread out with a noticeably wider reach.

Even if the heart gets just a few beats in before stopping, you can see the difference. This is especially true with head injuries. High vascularization in the dead shows up as blood everywhere; for the living, it's blood "going" everywhere!

There's a difference between pooling blood, which is what happens in body bags and leaves a small halo on-scene (if any at all!), and spreading blood which is what you see flowing down the street having just been ejected by a pumping heart, from a closed system, under pressure.

Also, fresh blood and unoxygenated blood just look and even feel different according to the stage of coagulation. I was a witness to the scene of something just like this three years ago where a person was hit by a truck -- crushed head and torso -- within MOMENTS of having had a heart attack. I suspected the sequence of events based on the stated observations and it was later borne out by the autopsy.

...and I'm sure there are many things I may be missing while I make lucky guesses!

(All such lovely thoughts before bed; G'nite!)

 

[CAOX3]

OK....

1. Dead bodies can and do bleed....sort of. If you put pressure on an enclosed space-let's use the thigh for example- and the surface of the space tears, you're going to have the liquid contents of that space come out. This is what will happen as a tire passes over a leg. The same thing will happen if you have a wound where gravity can do its thing. This is why the bottom of the inside of body bags are often coated in blood even if the victim at the scene was relatively clean.
2. You can tell premortem injuries from post-mortem injuries at autopsy, but you have to know what you're looking at and I am willing to bet money none of the guys on that scene are pathologists, pathologist assistants or autopsy techs. Mostly it has to do with the difference in appearance of a perfused tissue at the time of trauma versus non-perfused and the resulting hemorrhage into the tissues.

Can they narrow it down to minutes?

For instance would they be able to determine time of death even if the events happened just minutes apart?

 

[usafmedic45]

Not on scene like these bumbling morons tried to do, but generally we can tell- as an example- if a fracture was due to the crash someone one was in or a result of post-mortem exposure to intense fire. So, to answer your question, in most circumstances, yes.

 

[medic417]

"They too reported hitting a large dog."

Okay from the first story the above. If you see a large object in the road would you try and avoid hitting it? If driving at a safe speed on a clear night with headlights and street lights as this intersection has I believe you see a large object you should be able to safely manuever around it.

 

[adamjh3]

I wasn't there and don't know all the circumstances, thus I hate playing monday morning quarterback, but if I were to give benefit of the doubt to the crew, I'd say the driver probably saw the "large object" and felt he was moving too quickly to safely maneuver around it. How fast that was in relation to the speed limit, I can't answer

Assuming it was already in he road, they probably thought it was some sort of already dead animal, no big whoop, right?

 

[CAOX3]

Not on scene like these bumbling morons tried to do, but generally we can tell- as an example- if a fracture was due to the crash someone one was in or a result of post-mortem exposure to intense fire. So, to answer your question, in most circumstances, yes.

Very interesting,