Turmoil in Team

While I am trying not to get into the BLS vs. ALS debate, could I just point a couple of things out?


You wouldn't think someone claiming to be a medic would say something so foolish. Basic is where it all begins and where you develop your good assessment skills, without a proper assessment ALS means nothing.

The higher up the chain your credentials get, the better your assessments get.

Assessment is not just about ABC, though that is the early part, it is much more complex, even in out of the hospital settings. Without understanding of basic and clinical sciences it is impossible to perform any meaningful assessment. Based on the current EMT curriculum, only a very limited set of pathologies are even mentioned, certainly not detailed. (please do not tell us all how your basic class was so much more, until you are reading Robins and coltran Pathological Basis of Disease, Harrisons Principles Internal Medicine, Sabastion Textbook of Surgery, or Nelson's Pediatrics you got a grossly oversimplified education of pathology, probably so much so most of it doesn't even qualify as "true.")

With such a limited view it is absolutely impossible to even determine who is suffering from a lifetheatening condition, like thyroid storm, which isn't even mentioned in Emergency Care. How about acute renal failure? Meningitis?

The role of the Basic is to offer the most simple assessment and treatments aimed at preserving air going in and out and blodd going round and round. Whether it is bleeding, cardiac arrest, or obstructive airway disease, the main point if the providers role is to get a higher level of care involved.

This is by no means useless and shouldn't be downplayed as not helping. But to say Basic Life support is the foundation of anything is simply false. Basic science is the foundation of medicine. Some medical students will not even learn to do CPR untill their 3rd or 5th year. That is considerably along in their education. It is a skill taught to nonhealthcare providers, and even the healthcare provider level is passable by high school students and people with no medical knowledge or inclination. Even Instructors of such do not have to be healthcare providers.

More importantly, the amount of patients that are encountered with conditions where BLS as we commonly know it play a direct role with interventions is relatively small. (probably less than 5% of all patients encountered)

For those few patients though, BLS will likely have a positive impact.


And what is that taxi driver going to do when the person in the back starts to go into shock because he wasnt trained to identify early signs or take measures to prevent shock? Or what about a patient that needs good airway management?.

What is the BLS provider going to do to prevent or mitigate shock? Give high flow O2 which only makes a difference in a handful of pathologies? The highly disputed Trendelenburg position? A blanket despite prevailing movement towards theraputic hypothermia? Crystalloid solution? Attempt to maintain a SBP despite no direct correlation to perfusion status? This is a very ill concieved argument.

Good airway management? That sounds very generous. Providing some form of airway management is a situation where BLS is worth its weight in gold, but again, basic CPR teaches airway positioning and ventilation with both barrier device and BVM. A patient is no better benefitted from a head tilt chin lift by an OPA or NPA (they are devices so you don't need to allocate somebody to the airway maneuver) as well, a BVM and basic adjunct like NPA or OPA is no worse than a combitube, king, or whatever crash airway you like. Even intubation prehospital in under serious scrutiny.

If you are going to argue the benefits of BLS, that's cool, I'll help. But what you presented is not a winner.
 
All Im trying to say is there is alot to be said for good BLS. Its not as useless as some would make it out to be. I have seen medics who were terrible medics because once they got out of medic class they forgot all of their bls skills. That being said I also know basic needs improvement.
 
You wouldn't think someone claiming to be a medic would say something so foolish. Basic is where it all begins and where you develop your good assessment skills, without a proper assessment ALS means nothing.

Actually you can only assess what you have been educated to assess and sorry emt's do not have enough education to know how little they know. Thus any basic that claims they have done a proper assessment is sadly mistaken. Yes a Paramedic still starts at abc but they can see the bigger picture and actually do something to benefit the patient, often even recognizing and correcting the problem before they even need to pull out the advanced tools. And there should not be any BLS or ALS only patient care.

Your next post just shows how little basics know because basics do not know how to identify shock until it is in later stages. Sorry the taxi driver may not know to call it shock but he can say oh crap this person needs more help than I can provide just as fast as any basic.
 
Sorry the taxi driver may not know to call it shock but he can say oh crap this person needs more help than I can provide just as fast as any basic.

maybe even faster as the taxi guy probably never assumes he can handle whatever the problem is. I doubt i'll find anyone willing to let me do a study on it.

Really though, the best argument to basic is it is a low cost, easily taught, way to supply providers who will have the ability to provide a positive impact in an acute life threatening emergency in the short term untill a higher level of care can be initiated.

A basic also makes a very fine assistant.
 
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It's all relative. Basics have ten times the training of a basic first aider, and paramedics five times the training (in hours) of a basic. But compare that to higher-level providers, and it's not much at all for any of the above.

Basics, good ones, at least, do provide an essential link in the chain, though. And sometimes the intervention the patient needs is rapid transport. Don't let the whopping 1000 hours of paramedic school go to your head.
 
It's all relative. Basics have ten times the training of a basic first aider, and paramedics five times the training (in hours) of a basic. But compare that to higher-level providers, and it's not much at all for any of the above.

Basics, good ones, at least, do provide an essential link in the chain, though. And sometimes the intervention the patient needs is rapid transport. Don't let the whopping 1000 hours of paramedic school go to your head.

Never see it go to my head. Just stated the facts. And I do agree Paramedics in the USA are way to undereducated. So in all honesty taxi drivers in probably 90% or more cases could actually do as much good as Paramedics and 99% or more cases in comparison to basics.

Oh and math flawed first aid here is longer than 10 hours. And by your hours for Paramedic we are 9.1 times the hours of basics. Sorry not trying to nit pik.
 
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I was giving you the benefit of a 1000 hour medic class. I think the minimum is somewhat less than that.

Besides, taxis can't transport people supine. Well, except those London black cabs. Those are pretty neat.
 
I was giving you the benefit of a 1000 hour medic class. I think the minimum is somewhat less than that.

Besides, taxis can't transport people supine. Well, except those London black cabs. Those are pretty neat.

Just used your numbers. Yes sadly most Paramedic programs are much less.

Supine. No problem, probably less than 5 % of patients need supine transport.

If I keep typing I may get all of us emt's and Paramedics out of a job when the highers up find out we are of very little value. Guess we can join ff's on the unemployment lines when the truth about how little they are needed nowadays comes out.
 
It's not that EMS isn't needed, the role it fills just isn't showing up in 4 minutes, raising people from the dead, and driving them to the hospital.

If you want to see just how useful a basic or a medic can actually be, get a job at an amuzement park or industrial clinic.
 
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