Speeding, Alcohol Blamed In Fatal Ambulance Crash

[Asclepius]

I guess all I really want to know is do you think it is okay to have even 0.01 alcohol in your body (never mind the 0.09) and drive an ambulance? Do you think that that a person can willingly drink prior to shift, knowingly go to work and drive an ambulance?

I think that a person who has been drinking prior to the start of their shift should not be operating an ambulance. But with that being said, I also understand that .01 or more could be present even if the person has stopped drinking hours before the call. I am not giving her a free pass and saying she is innocent, but neither am I condemning her. I know too many things could have played into what the results were. I'm just so disappointed with all you guys being so closed minded.

What have the reports been concerning her actions since the crash? Is she remorseful? Is she taking any of the responsibility on herself? or is she just fighting for her survival?

Tragic though it is, us adding all our combined condemnation on this person, who, I am convinced, most likely meant well is not going to do anything productive. It certainly doesn't speak highly of a bunch of people who want to positively promote our profession while we're crucifying those that have made bad choices; especially choices we don't know all the facts on.

 

[ffemt8978]

For those that think we are hasty in our judgment because of the alcohol factor, let me ask you these questions:

1) At what BAC should we, as EMS professionals, draw the line for reporting to duty?

2) If you want to make an exception for someone, what happens when you have to make the same exception for the next person, and the next, and the next?

3) At what BAC do you think the alcohol affects a person's judgment and reaction times?

4) At what impairment level should we draw another line for driving an ambulance?

5) If her BAC at the hospital was .07, and was figured backwards to .092 at the time of the accident, what do you think her BAC was when she left the station, or even responded to the station?

Personally, I think Zero Tolerance/Zero Impairment should be our goal, our standard, and our minimum acceptable level. While it may not be a realistic goal, it will never be possible if we don't try for it.

 

[Guardian]

I've always been the first to proudly admit that I am idealistic. I completely agree that zero tolerance should be our goal, when we are deciding whether we fire an employee or not. But a charge of murder is different. In that case, you should have to prove whether or not alcohol was the cause of the problem. And if you can't show that it was the actual cause, then it becomes nothing more than a subjective sign of immaturity, stupidity, etc.

It amazes me that we are still talking about ETOH and ignoring the real problems in this particular incident.

 

[eggshen]

"every type of emergency in the book"? Is that the nursing home book? Every type? I mean really...that is a lot of emergencies. Wow, much emergencies for that fellow. There really is no end to the type of things crackerjack NH nurses can call for. Check....check....can we please solicit some advice from a medic that can run a call on the street...not in the nifty, forgiving ether that seems to suit some. Bet there is an o2 wrench on that belt. Missed you.

Egg

 

[triemal04]

How old was she? I know lots of EMT-B's that are barely 18. Ever make bad choices when you were 18? I know I did; some more serious than others.

Well, then I suppose by that reasoning nobody should be allowed to be an EMT until they are much older. :censored::censored::censored::censored:'s sake, what is the matter with you people? Gaurdian...asclepius...how can you do this job and still stand up and say this crap? Are you actually trying to condone people who show up for work after drinking? And I'm not talking 8-12 hours after their last drink, but within an hour or two or less. It's wrong. I don't care what else she did wrong, she came to work after drinking. And soon enough so that there was .09 in her system, and then .07 later. Do the math and see what that shows.

Yes, there were a whole lot of things wrong with this situation. Alcohol is the one that has been focused on, because it is the most easily fixed problem out of all of them, and one of the biggest that we as a society, and sub-set face. If you want to cut people slack for what they do, that's fine. But make sure that you can live with the consequences.

To say that we should not condemn her for her BAC is to say that it was not a problem, and that her actions (drinking prior to or during her shift) were acceptable. Is that what you really want to say?

 

[Asclepius]

For those that think we are hasty in our judgment because of the alcohol factor, let me ask you these questions:

1) At what BAC should we, as EMS professionals, draw the line for reporting to duty?

2) If you want to make an exception for someone, what happens when you have to make the same exception for the next person, and the next, and the next?

3) At what BAC do you think the alcohol affects a person's judgment and reaction times?

4) At what impairment level should we draw another line for driving an ambulance?

5) If her BAC at the hospital was .07, and was figured backwards to .092 at the time of the accident, what do you think her BAC was when she left the station, or even responded to the station?

Personally, I think Zero Tolerance/Zero Impairment should be our goal, our standard, and our minimum acceptable level. While it may not be a realistic goal, it will never be possible if we don't try for it.

Well, then I suppose by that reasoning nobody should be allowed to be an EMT until they are much older. :censored::censored::censored::censored:'s sake, what is the matter with you people? Gaurdian...asclepius...how can you do this job and still stand up and say this crap? Are you actually trying to condone people who show up for work after drinking? And I'm not talking 8-12 hours after their last drink, but within an hour or two or less. It's wrong. I don't care what else she did wrong, she came to work after drinking. And soon enough so that there was .09 in her system, and then .07 later. Do the math and see what that shows.

Yes, there were a whole lot of things wrong with this situation. Alcohol is the one that has been focused on, because it is the most easily fixed problem out of all of them, and one of the biggest that we as a society, and sub-set face. If you want to cut people slack for what they do, that's fine. But make sure that you can live with the consequences.

To say that we should not condemn her for her BAC is to say that it was not a problem, and that her actions (drinking prior to or during her shift) were acceptable. Is that what you really want to say?

obviously your reading and interpretational skills need to be burshed up on. No one has condoned it. we simply understand that there is more to it than meets the eye. You all are the ones who are missing the bigger picture, becuase you've condemned this lady and done so without any explanation from her as to what was going on at the time. Sorry to say, I wouldn't want to have any of you as a partner. You'd sell me out the first chance you had.

Good night, and God Bless.

 

[Ridryder911]

I guess I am passionate, because we had to discharge two Paramedics within the past two weeks to similar problems. Without going into great detail, one was an excellent veteran Paramedic that I would allow to treat any of my family member and I would place against anyone in medical knowledge. The other a promising new Paramedic. Both now, their careers probably tragically cut short because of poor personal decisions.

Unfortunately, many turned their heads and made excuses instead of actually dealing with the problems head on. Allowing such behavior in the workforce is condoning and enabling the person. Sorry, when one enters the workforce as a "professional" then there are obligations that one automatically assumes. This is not just passion, but understanding the responsibilities that comes with that position. There are NO excuses allowed, and if one cannot handle that type of responsibility, then they should not even consider or enter this profession.

This job requires much more than just knowledge in health care. There is a problem if one would ever have to worry about a random drug or alcohol screen at work. Unfortunately, most EMS do not require such because they would have to offer drug rehabilitation. Personally, I feel it would be a great idea to have such and EMS should require it.

I find it ironic that the nursing profession takes this much more seriously than EMS. In comparison, in my state; if one is found to be under the influence or impaired, or have been accused of narcotics at the work site, the nurse is assumed guilty until proven innocent by the Board. The reason is for the safety of the citizens. One has to prove to the board their innocence, and that there were special circumstances to allow them to behave, act, and operate. I have yet seen this to occur. Most of those have to either relinquish their license or go through an intense PEER program for one year, (at their costs) and be closely monitored, then be placed upon probation as determined by the board.

So yes, most medical professions take this seriously, just a shame as usual EMS does not take a stand.

Is the employer responsible? You bet! Await the civil law suit. They are responsible for their employees actions. This will be an endless fault, from the senior partner, shift supervisor to the administrator, etc. All responsible for their employees actions and behavior. This is why EMS has to mature and actually become a profession understanding its responsibilities.

Hopefully, there will be some positive outcomes from this and other tragic events. If there is enough paid out from insurance companies, they will enforce changes.
I foresee:
Mandatory EVOC before any driving of an EMS unit. Not a simple 8 hour driving in and out of cones, but an enhance 2 week driving program, which should be required already before anyone gets behind the wheel.

Training and education of supervisory positions to assess for "problems" in behavior in the work force. Increasing "black box" to monitor driving and increasing awareness programs of employees.

Larger services will start having developing "random" drug and alcohol testing. Hopefully, with services offering help and assistance for those found affected.

States EMS office will actually become what they should be. License and regulatory centers, that their primary responsibility is to assure safety to the public. Develop programs to assist those that are affected such as PEER programs, and monitor those persons.

Believe it or not, I personally am not for the government to ever be involved. Unfortunately, our profession will not be responsible, or police itself, therefore someone has to do it. If there is enough teeth in it; then most will comply.

I guess my passion is until we can clean up or own act we will never really be considered a profession. I have worked with literally a thousand partners, and yes, several I refused to work with or sent home. A situtation I should had never been placed in. A mature responsible person, would had never considered placing or jeopardizing anyone elses life. Again, this reflects back to the profession.

Like I said before: It's time for EMS and those involved in it, to grow up. Be responsible for their action and reactions. Regardless of this specific case, we have too many EVO incidents and accidents. One person dying is too many. We are here to save a life, not take any. It is time for us to be pro-active.

R/r 911

 

[triemal04]

obviously your reading and interpretational skills need to be burshed up on. No one has condoned it. we simply understand that there is more to it than meets the eye. You all are the ones who are missing the bigger picture, becuase you've condemned this lady and done so without any explanation from her as to what was going on at the time. Sorry to say, I wouldn't want to have any of you as a partner. You'd sell me out the first chance you had.

Good night, and God Bless.

No, no and no. You don't seem to get it do you little fella? By demanding that nobody consider alcohol as part of the problem, by demanding that we ignore the fact that she had been drinking, by demanding that we only look at things unrelated to her BAC and ignore it, you ARE condoning her drinking. It doesn't matter if there were more problems there; of course there are, I think everybody has said that at some point. But alcohol was one of them, and your insistence that we ignore it and do nothing about it seems to indicate that you don't care and don't consider it an issue. I'm curious why that is. Had that problem yourself at some point? And your refusal to answer some very basic questions says quite a bit about you and how you feel about this issue.

And don't even try to bring up the partner-loyalty issue. You've watched to many movies, to many TV shows, and apparently have far to little experience working in the real world. I will go to any length for any partner of mine and anyone who is part of my crew. Any length. But all that means in this situation is that when I walked in and smelled alcohol on their breath is that the responce would have been "call in sick NOW and get your dumbass out of here NOW. And we'll be talking about this very soon." No good partner would let someone drive after drinking, or even show up to work a couple hours after the last glass. No good partner anyway. Stop watching TV and start living in reality for awhile.

 

[Asclepius]

No, no and no. You don't seem to get it do you little fella? By demanding that nobody consider alcohol as part of the problem, by demanding that we ignore the fact that she had been drinking, by demanding that we only look at things unrelated to her BAC and ignore it, you ARE condoning her drinking.

Again, I would send you back to a comprehension class. Show me one time when I, or anyone else, has demanded that alcohol not be a consideration or to ignore the BAC. The only point we've been making is that we weren't there and that we're sure there was more going on than just ETOH. We also mad the point that ETOH affects everyone differently and that it may or may not be a sizable reason for the events that transpired in this case.

And don't even try to bring up the partner-loyalty issue. You've watched to many movies, to many TV shows, and apparently have far to little experience working in the real world.

Here you go making assumptions again. You seem to know everything about me, despite the fact we don't know each other. I have nothing to prove to you. I'm quite capable in my experience and abilities, so I won't dignify your characterizations with a rebuttal.

 

[Chimpie]

This thread is done.

 

[ffemt8978]

It looks like the driver is now going to court to face charges:

Pennsylvania Rescuer Headed to Trial Over Fatal Crash