shock and polytrauma and critically ill

Veneficus

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Let me just preface this upfront.

I want to open a discussion about this, but as I am actively trying to get it published, I am not citing any sources here. That way you are at least 2 weeks behind me if you try to steal it.

For many years, the heart, brain, and kidney have been listed as the vital organs to save in an emergency.

I postulate in the long term, the liver is also key.

Recently the focus of my study was on the use of NGAL to detect AKI early enough to do something about it.

In trauma and conditions such as cardiac sugery and sepsis, renal function is impaired because of medulary sensitivity to decreased oxygen.

The current standards of creatine and bun do not reflect this injury for ~48 hours, and even then because of many variables it is difficult to interpret.

NGAL is both sensitive and specific (numbers withheld intentionally) but better than 80% according to most reputable studies, in as little as 2 hours. It is demonstrative not only of the injury, but also prognostic in many cases as well.

2 companies have already marketed easy and relatively inexpensive as far as medical equipment goes, point of care testing.

The point of early detection is to initiate therapies early enough to preserve as much renal function as possible.

But it got me wondering, which is why I am posting this.

Lactate has long been a gold standard of determining hypoperfusion in shock states. But it is a systemic measurement. It is not measuring how much the liver is converting back to pyruvate in compensation. It is not measuring damage to individual tissues. (Especially the kidney) Which might mean that even though lactate is normal. There may still be hypoperfusion to sensitive tissues like kidney and liver prolonging subclinical injury. (the 2 organs highly suseptable to slight changes in oxygenation due to the diffusion distances of their active tissues)

Now if you've spent anytime with the pathology of shock, you know that basically the body reaches the point of decompensation because it has used every mechanism available to it to maintain mostly perfusion to the brain and kidneys. Eventually even the heart cannot be perfused and the game is over.

Now keep in mind, I am talking about sick people, who will require timely intervention in order to break the cycle of progressive shock. Not the mild controlled blood loss, or slightly dehydrated.

So by using a global measure of shock, like lactate level, which incorperates every organ/tissue I wonder if we are underresuscitating, or not resuscitating when it may be beneficial.

Cardiac Troponin I is both fast and specific.

NGAL while not widely used, meets the same criteria for a more sensitive organ.

Brain I haven't thought of a marker yet.

There is a whole panel for liver function, and while not traditionally included in core circulation (my nobel in the making) it is the location of significant protein synthesis, the urea cycle, and metabolism.

While the liver is not part of the traditional "core" mostly from the thinking it has regenerative capacity long term. In the short term, the impairment of such can inhibit hemostasis, inhibit conversion of lactate, and inhibit the formation of urine which systemically inhibits a whole slew of metabolism as well as various electrolyte balances.

Doesn't that sound important? (rhetorical)

So here is the discussion part:

In the early stages of medical intervention, EMS and ED, is more tissue specific and aggresive resuscitation needed?

Is it practical?

Can it be made more/less so by POC diagnostics?

Could it improve quality of life 10 or even 20 years down the line because of early preservation of renal function which will be subject to the stress of chronic disease later?

Can early intervention prior to an ICU admit, or worse, no ICU admit, lead to decreased hospital stay and morbidity?

I have found no answers to these question, only expert opinion and theory. What is your take?
 

Farmer2DO

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I think that you have entertained an extremely important concept, and one that has the potential to make a huge difference.

In considering EM and EMS, I do have a few thoughts.

In EMS, the usefulness will be largely dependent on where you practice, for 2 reasons. First, consider transport time. The agency where I currently work considers anything more than 10 minutes transport to be long. I work a 911 contract for a busy, medium sized city. Many days, I am struggling to get a second line in my patients that deserve one, simply due to time. For that reason, I don't think there is a lot of room to improve, on the practical end, level of aggressivess for resuscitation. That doesn't mean I don't think it's important. Actually the opposite. I used to work for the competing commercial agency in the county here, and by the nature of the contracts, they do much more work in the suburbs and rural areas, where 20-30 minute transport times are far more common. I think it's very important here. The second reason has to do with the progressiveness of your system. I have worked as a paramedic in 2 different regions (in the same state) and the difference in how physician medical directors view field EMS providers is staggering. In the system where I currently work, we practice evidence based medicine. Our system medical director is a paramedic, and is always on the lookout for new (to us) ideas to improve patient care, and to carry out research that is meaningful. He gets trials approved on a regular basis at the state level, and generates a large volume of meaningful research in EM and EMS. He is down to earth and easy to talk to, and still works the streets whenever he can. If you violate the protocols (which I do on a weekly basis), and you justify why in your PCR, it's rarely an issue. Even when it is an issue, it's usually a conversation with one of the medical directors as to why, and how you should handle it in the future. (I'm talking about trying to make decisions that are in the best interest of your patient, not being a screw up.) The other system is polar opposite. Very mother-may-I. Any violation of the protocols, even if it is considered to be accepted medical care, or turns out to be the right decision, is met with the gates of Hell being opened on you. It's not a system that likes to teach providers by their mistakes; there, mistakes need to be punished. Both have large, university based programs that run along side a medical school, and the systems even border each other. My point here is that my current system is pretty cutting edge for EMS, and would welcome trying to improve patient care through research and early intervention, while the other system would not. They are still (within the last few months) punishing paramedics for not placing high flow, NRB oxygen on every patient to receive an ALS workup, regardless of presentation, vitals, CC etc. I think trying to do something like this there would only be met with resistance. That's not to say we shouldn't try to improve the care there, I just think it will be a struggle.

The other aspect is EM, which also ties into EMS. Again, in my current system, we transport to 4 hospitals that all are greater than 300 inpatient beds. Care being applied here is generally not too far behind what is being proposed as good care. The problem is smaller, outlying community hospitals. So many of these have NO concept of how to manage things like sepsis and shock. I have done a lot (hundreds) of inter-facility transfers and have discovered that I often know more, as a paramedic, about the resuscitation in the first 24 hours of care for these patients than the physicians admitting them to the ICU. Literally. These providers may be decent for primary care, but have no idea how to manage these patients. One of the frequent problems I encounter is significant under-aggression in fluid resuscitation. They fluid restrict these patients because of some vague history of CHF, or even the fear of it, without signs, symptoms, or results from lab and radiology workups even hinting at it, while they are driving up their BUN and creatinine and decimating their urine output. I could tell you many stories that would just make you shudder, and it's not specific to one hospital. They refuse, in general, to place central lines, monitor CVP, place art lines, give adequate amounts of fluid, use pressors appropriately (dopamine at 40 mcg/kg/min and levo at 24 mcg/min are fine through peripheral 22 g lines, on the same patient), sedate their vent patients (just tie them down), and even use PEEP on vent patients ("our doctors don't believe in PEEP"). My point through this verbose, rambling post, is that it is entirely possible for the EMS agency to be more aggressive than the receiving hospital, and that creates a problem. On one end, I could see the hospital refusing to continue the level of care that was started, or even undo the work. (Urine output is dropping in a shock patient? Don't give them fluid, infact, we'll make it KVO and put up a lasix drip.) In my old system, I could actually see hospitals trying to take action against a field provider for being too aggressive, and try to get them punished.

I think you are onto a very good idea here, and one that has large potential. I find what you are doing incredibly interesting. Sepsis and shock are huge areas of interest for me. (Now I just need to get into medical school so I can apply my interest!) I wish you the best of luck, and think that you have a future of generating meaningful results in whatever field you decide to apply yourself. I wish you the best of luck!
 

Akulahawk

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What I wonder is whether or not perfusion states that are injurious to the Kidneys (or other major organs) have been correlated with injury to the Liver that reliably produces markers that are specific to the Liver and trend back toward normal when adequate perfusion returns.

It could well be that it's assumed that if the heart, brain, and kidneys are all being adequately perfused, so is the liver...

What would also be very helpful would be use of said markers to be able to somehow quantify the necessary aggressiveness in reperfusion therapy (in whatever form of choice) so that the patient doesn't slide into a decompensated shock state and thus set off a cascade of events that get more and more difficult to control... I'd rather stay ahead of the game than chase it...
 
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Veneficus

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It could well be that it's assumed that if the heart, brain, and kidneys are all being adequately perfused, so is the liver...

But if you don't know if the kidney is perfused, you could be under treating. Not just for the liver, since the current marker doesn't show up for 48 hours.

What would also be very helpful would be use of said markers to be able to somehow quantify the necessary aggressiveness in reperfusion therapy (in whatever form of choice) so that the patient doesn't slide into a decompensated shock state and thus set off a cascade of events that get more and more difficult to control... I'd rather stay ahead of the game than chase it...

That is part of the question, should earlier POC testing be inititated, can it be practically, and by who?
 

8jimi8

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How early in the chain of survival does the body cut of perfusion of the liver? Current theory is that map of >65 is end organ perfusion of the kidneys, correct?

How are we ensuring kidney perfusion other than with a blood pressure extrapolation?

Are you advocating foleys in the field?

Is there an inexpensive point of care test?
 
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Veneficus

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How early in the chain of survival does the body cut of perfusion of the liver? Current theory is that map of >65 is end organ perfusion of the kidneys, correct?

yes

are we ensuring kidney perfusion other than with a blood pressure extrapolation?

I am suggesting POC troponin, serum NGAL, and I haven't decide on brain or liver yet

you advocating foleys in the field?

Is there an inexpensive point of care test?

No foley

POC testing is relatively in expensive, but requires both daily and weekly control.

So I am wondering if this early detection from extra cost and effort pays off with increases in preserved renal/heart/liver function either in the critical care setting or in the long term recovery of the patient.

No research exists that is known to a host of professors here. Having consulted them I figured I ask what the brainy people here thought too.
 

usalsfyre

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Is there anything suggesting even a casual relationship between physiologic signs of shock and liver dysfunction later in life?
 
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Veneficus

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Is there anything suggesting even a casual relationship between physiologic signs of shock and liver dysfunction later in life?

liver dysfunction no,

kidney disfunction, yes.

But my thinking is that since both are subject to near identical physiology and both are interdependant on each other, that in let's call it the intermediate term, of ICU, or ward stay, liver impairment could conceivably impair recovery leading to longer hospital stays prior to its regeneration and result in renal damage.

Acute kidney damage is by definition potentially reversible, but the question here is if you are reduced from let's say for argument, from 100% renal function to 70% from an acute injury for a 20 years old pt, because of underresuscitation due to lack of identification which then becomes irreversible, and then you get diabetes or heart disease later in life, say 40 or 50 y/o, you may approach renal failure even faster. Which of course costs a lot, not to mention really reduces quality of life and longevity.

So underresuscitation today could conceivably cost a pt big time in 30 years.
 

Melclin

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I think one of the big arguments in favour of paramedics receiving a broad education now is the decent likelihood of a range of quick and inexpensive POC markers determining care in the not to distant future.

Transport time is important would probably factor into whether or not you bother, but with the increasing prevalence of centres of excellence, (Trauma, burns, spinal, there is talk of cardiac arrest centres etc), even with short transport times to the nearest hospital, it may become our job to do some relatively extensive POC testing to inform risk stratification and/or triage to specialist centres. If that increases transport time, then we may need to get involved in the more complex indications for resus (as you mention) and indeed, more complex forms of resuscitation, to offset the effects of a 1.5 hour transport time instead of the 10 minutes to the nearest ED. If we do go down that path though, you might be hard pushed to do it without physician based ambulances.

In the early stages of medical intervention, EMS and ED, is more tissue specific and aggresive resuscitation needed?

Intuitively one would of course like to say yes. SpO2, BSL and ECG have been pretty successful. If we find more POC tests that turn out to be economical and efficacious then of course they will be good ideas (I wouldn't be surprised if we trialed POC lactate here in the next 5 years). But right now, who knows. Raise a couple of million dollars, pick a marker, some gear, run a trial and find out.

Its all speculation at this stage. Its feels like you're sitting next some bloke a couple of hundred years ago, he's telling you about this funny idea he has for the hypodermic needle, and you're wondering asking him about the efficacy of prehospital fluid resuscitation in truncal trauma. By all means play with these ideas, you're in an area now where these things begin and then trickle down into EMS, but it feels like you're looking for answers that aren't ganna exist for another 20 years.
 
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Veneficus

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update on the research

I must retract my statement that NGAL may be useful like troponin for kidney injury.

As I continued to research it, I discovered what I hope was an accidental misinterpretation of the data on a particularly large study.

It appears with the corrected numbers, this test will be of no use at all.
 
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mycrofft

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brain=csf

but how invasive do you want to be versus possible benefit?
Can't you check an organ's metabolism by scanning? Just need the right combo of marker chemicals, maybe.
 
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Veneficus

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but how invasive do you want to be versus possible benefit?
Can't you check an organ's metabolism by scanning? Just need the right combo of marker chemicals, maybe.

finding those chemicals is the trick.

They have to be sensitive, specific, easily to test for and detectable in time to do something about them.

To top it all off they have to be constant across every patient population and it is possible they don't exist.
 
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mycrofft

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...and danged expensive and have side effects and need a dedicated scanner.

Just need Unobtanium triexethyloxihyde.

Oh, for a tricorder.
 

Katana

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First and foremost, I would just say that I am not a doctor and therefore can not engage in discussions equal to other writers.

you write that NGAL test is not beneficial, based on a study where you hope that the data is incorrect, does that mean that you have investigated the matter thoroughly?

Im researching on possible investments, and our team have had a growing interest, particularly for NGAL test, since we see a relatively high potential for this particular test.

What we value highly, and what we believe to have found evidence for, is that NGAL test has the potential to save hospitals large sums on both unnecessary treatment but also on better patient care because that kidney damage is discovered earlier.

I have a lot of studies that show that we are right, but the reason I write this post is that I find your post very interesting and factually well founded.

A few of my arguments for NGAL test could be interesting, this study shows that it can reduce costs for hospitals.
http://www.eventkaddy.com/sccm/abstractInfo.asp?abstractId=368

This study shows the differ, to whether or not, dialysis is started before or after the third day. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21372568

The company we are looking at, is working for a global patent for NGAL marker where they have set some cutoffs, for which they believe can diagnose AKI, they believe that a value of 250-525 ng / ml diagnose AKI, and a value of between 1000 and 3000 diagnose AKI requiring dialysis.

We predict NGAL test a great future, and I was almost choking in my coffee, when I read ypur post.

Keep up the good work, and I apologize if my post is slightly out of context.
Sincerely,

Katana
 
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