Self protection question

[John E]

TropicalJosiah said" Though my original question was not really pertaining to firearms, and I know that EMS very often wear vests and carry ASP's where I'm from in LA/OC."

I'm curious, where in Los Angeles or Orange County have you seen EMS personnel carrying Asp batons?

John E.

 

[jochi1543]

Oh, I just remembered, we have an Indian reserve here where they give medics bullet-resistant (not -proof.:unsure vests...but you don't have to wear them to every call. There's a lot of violent crime on that rez, so it's an exception to the rule.

 

[Sapphyre]

I'm curious, where in Los Angeles or Orange County have you seen EMS personnel carrying Asp batons?

John E.

I'd like to know as well. Actually, I'd like to know where they issue vests. Apparently, we have them at work, but they aren't issued, and I had to ask (out of curiosity).

 

[EMTCop86]

Cops wear vest 100% of the time without issue.

Have you ever talked to a real cop? Vest are hot and bulky. They wear them to help protect against bullets, not because they are comfortable. Also not all cops wear a vest. There are many advances in bullet proof vest now a days but to say "Cops wear vest 100% of the time without issue" shows that you have been misinformed.

 

[EMTCop86]

I'm curious, where in Los Angeles or Orange County have you seen EMS personnel carrying Asp batons?

Ditto. I am really curious now too.

 

[ffemt8978]

It sounds like they don't care what we do as long as it's justified and the "discussion" stops once patient is completely restrained or unconscious.

Ohh, I can guarantee that they care...the patient cares, the patient's family cares, the doctor cares, the agency cares, the lawyers care, and you should to.

And remember, just because you may not face criminal charges, doesn't mean you're in the clear as far as civil liability goes (OJ anyone?).

Are there times where it could be appropriate to seriously injure a patient? Absolutely! If you are in a life and death struggle with no chance to escape, then you may defend yourself using, up to and including, lethal force if necessary...provided that you don't use any more force than necessary to stop the threat and/or give yourself a chance to escape.

I'm sure DT4EMS can provide much better insight than this, and I strongly encourage that you contact him.

 

[DT4EMS]

I would like to give a cop perspective on this.

1) In is in our department policy we wear our vests while on duty. Yes it's hot, but I can be hot and live.

2) I specialize in the Use of Force and teach numerous subjects pertaining to it. There is nothing more I would hate than to charge an EMS provider with assault. Truth is, if you use any force that is not justified chances are, you will be charged in todays society.

I have said it before........... if the person is high or or drunk........... regardless of their injury/illness.................. if they are in an active agression mode............

YOU SHOULD NOT BE RESTRAINING THEM! You can make a case for your safety and allow the police to restrain them.

More EMS providers are assualted during a restraint attempt than just about any other situation.

 

[ffemt8978]

I would like to give a cop perspective on this.

1) In is in our department policy we wear our vests while on duty. Yes it's hot, but I can be hot and live.

2) I specialize in the Use of Force and teach numerous subjects pertaining to it. There is nothing more I would hate than to charge an EMS provider with assault. Truth is, if you use any force that is not justified chances are, you will be charged in todays society.

I have said it before........... if the person is high or or drunk........... regardless of their injury/illness.................. if they are in an active agression mode............

YOU SHOULD NOT BE RESTRAINING THEM! You can make a case for your safety and allow the police to restrain them.

More EMS providers are assualted during a restraint attempt than just about any other situation.

And then you have to deal with something like this...http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=10039

 

[rjz]

I have said it before........... if the person is high or or drunk........... regardless of their injury/illness.................. if they are in an active agression mode............

YOU SHOULD NOT BE RESTRAINING THEM! You can make a case for your safety and allow the police to restrain them.

More EMS providers are assualted during a restraint attempt than just about any other situation.

I haven't really thought of that before. You make a great point. Just this last week I had an agressive drunk that we needed to restrain. He wazs fine until we got him on the gurney and lifted then something snapped...I don't know what and he started fighting us. We were out on the middle of BFE and LEO was about 45 mintues away. We got him restrained and taken to the hospital. (read implied consent) I also for the first time used Versed to Chemically restrian him. He was moving around so much I could not get him out of his trailer and was concerned about the gurney tipping over.

So I guess I will think about allowing (requesting) LEO to restrian my Pt. now. Thanks!!

BTW how about chemical restraint as a self defense?? Our region has it as a standing order for extreme aggitiation.

 

[para82frame]

First of all I expect that I will be attacked for what I am about to write but...
I carry the most effective weapon the state or city will allow me, yes I have and continue to carry a concealed hand gun (I have a CCW), pepper spray and knives to many scenes with cops on scene also. my life is always going to be worth more then someones who is trying to hurt me, my family or innocent people. Most states self defense/use of force/deadly force laws are simple, you try to hurt someone or commit a violent felony, equal/escalating force may be used to stop it, and guess what? assault of a EMS worker is a violent felony.
No civilian job is worth my life, I would much rather be jobless and alive then dead with full honors at my funeral.
Anyone that thinks that someone could get a hold of my or a cops gun easily never watched or took a weapon retention course, keeping in control of your weapon is not that hard with just class room teaching on how to do so.

 

[DT4EMS]

First of all I expect that I will be attacked for what I am about to write but...
I carry the most effective weapon the state or city will allow me, yes I have and continue to carry a concealed hand gun (I have a CCW), pepper spray and knives to many scenes with cops on scene also. my life is always going to be worth more then someones who is trying to hurt me, my family or innocent people. Most states self defense/use of force/deadly force laws are simple, you try to hurt someone or commit a violent felony, equal/escalating force may be used to stop it, and guess what? assault of a EMS worker is a violent felony.
No civilian job is worth my life, I would much rather be jobless and alive then dead with full honors at my funeral.
Anyone that thinks that someone could get a hold of my or a cops gun easily never watched or took a weapon retention course, keeping in control of your weapon is not that hard with just class room teaching on how to do so.

I wish you the best of luck on your choices. I have told the story many times of how I USED to carry my gun while working on the ambulance ( I am a full-time police officer) and worked part-time as a medic.

My ambulance was car-jacked while loaded with a pateint. I fought empty handed against an attacker who struck me during my attempt to gain control of the ambulance (He was in the drivers seat, I was on my knees through the opening) I was tending the cardiac pateint in the back.

If I had my weapon (which I had left secured that day) I would have been justified in shootign the man. (Due to the Felony force he used during 3 counts of kindapping and vehicle theft)

After it was over I thought.......... the headlines would have read "Paramedic shoots man in ambulance".

Having testified numerous times.......... I just just imagine the size of the check my service would have wrote.

As long as you can justify your having and using your "tool" whatever that tool may be.

I can assure you.............. with 700,000 annaul assaults on EMS and the public doesn't care............ you will have a heck of a legal battle if/when you use your tool.


What do you do when you are called to places that you are not allowed to carry concealed in? That is usually a violation of your concealed permit.
Good luck ( and I am not being sarcastic).

Kip

 

[Ridryder911]

......First of all I expect that I will be attacked for what I am about to write but...
I carry the most effective weapon the state or city will allow me, yes I have and continue to carry a concealed hand gun (I have a CCW), pepper spray and knives to many scenes with cops on scene also. my life is always going to be worth more then someones who is trying to hurt me, my family or innocent people. Most states self defense/use of force/deadly force laws are simple, you try to hurt someone or commit a violent felony, equal/escalating force may be used to stop it, and guess what? assault of a EMS worker is a violent felony......etc

I actually kinda feel sorry for you. You are poorly informed, under-educated and lack the general understanding of what real life is like. If you think or even presume that a concealed weapon would ever be justifiable you are not ignorant, nor delusional; just stupid. As well are you sure that it is a felony within your state, its not in all states.

Just remember, you maybe alive but you and your family will have to suffer the consequences as well. Litigation on civil suits will be guaranteed after prosecution ( yes, you will be prosecuted) can your family afford that? Your employer will acclaim exemption since I am sure they do not have a policy on shooting patients or allowing such. So can your careless actions really afford $250,000 legal fees and million and a half settlement?

Take a course like Chip's and learn the best defense actions, we have no reason or room for John Wayne types in this business. Bring a weapon on duty in my employment & your fired, as you should be.

I too would wish you luck, but I believe your family needs it more.

 

[BossyCow]

It's official! Common Sense is Passé!

I own guns. I believe in and support the right to keep and bear arms. I also believe I have a right to free speech. Neither of these rights overides the responsibility of me to use my brain to determine when is an appropriate time to exercise these rights. Carrying a concealed weapon while on duty in an ambulance is the equivilent to crying fire in a crowded theatre. The resulting danger and potential for harm to the innocent and uninvolved far outweighs the need to exercise my 'rights'.

 

[VentMedic]

Anyone that thinks that someone could get a hold of my or a cops gun easily never watched or took a weapon retention course, keeping in control of your weapon is not that hard with just class room teaching on how to do so.

If all of your concern is for your gun and not the patient, you are in the wrong business. If you want to possess a gun that badly at work, go be a cop. However, your attitude may actually disqualify you during the LEO screening process due to your disreguard to the law and safety.

I've had my concealed weapons permit for many years and respect the law that granted me this privilege to exercise my right. Thus, breaking the law disrepects everything it stands for.

Your state's concealed weapons permit should read much like the other states as it will list specifically where you can not carry a weapon. Your company's policy manual should also state whether weapons are allowed in the work place. I suggest you read both very carefully.

Or, you could just take your own advice:

No civilian job is worth my life, I would much rather be jobless

 

[rescuepoppy]

I own guns. I believe in and support the right to keep and bear arms. I also believe I have a right to free speech. Neither of these rights overides the responsibility of me to use my brain to determine when is an appropriate time to exercise these rights. Carrying a concealed weapon while on duty in an ambulance is the equivilent to crying fire in a crowded theatre. The resulting danger and potential for harm to the innocent and uninvolved far outweighs the need to exercise my 'rights'.

Have to go with Bossy on this. The best weapon we can have is the one between our ears. Just be alert to what is going on around you,and dont be afraid to talk to your patients. Most of the time treating people with respect will go a long way to diffuse a situation before it reaches the point of becoming physical. However if it does reach the physical level be willing to put the macho (or whatever you want to call it) attitude behind and use escape routes. I dont have personal attacments to anything in a truck I will leave it to a patient if I have to for my own safety.
We have enough items in an ambulance that can be used as a weapon. No need to introduce another. I too have my CCW permit,but will not carry in any patient care situation. We do not need the bad press we would get from th headlines that read "Paramedic Uses Gun,Knife.Asp,Or other weapon Against Patient". Not to mention the legal aspects of this.

 

[emtashleyb]

I own guns. I believe in and support the right to keep and bear arms. I also believe I have a right to free speech. Neither of these rights overides the responsibility of me to use my brain to determine when is an appropriate time to exercise these rights. Carrying a concealed weapon while on duty in an ambulance is the equivilent to crying fire in a crowded theatre. The resulting danger and potential for harm to the innocent and uninvolved far outweighs the need to exercise my 'rights'.

I also agree with bossy. I would never ever take a gun on an ambo. I would fear of it accidently discharging shooting myself, a pt, bystander or my partner. I am not good with handguns anyway now give me a m14 and I will do some damage lol

 

[para82frame]

Let me add that I would only use deadly force when met with deadly force. I expected these types of responses but still feel I have a valid opinion (no matter how right or wrong)
Also my state has a "castle doctorate" which extends to your place of work (I.E. the ambulance) and protects me from civil suits in the event of a "clean" shoot.I hope I will never have to use deadly force:sad:, but if need be I will be ready.

 

[FF-EMT Diver]

I just carry my hands and keep nothing between me and the exit but air

But if I found myself assaulted I would fight like I,ve trained to, as has been said if you train you can handle it, If someone pulled a gun on me and I had no way out and could'nt verbally defuse the situation I quess I'd just take the gun from em if poss (probly not poss)

When I wanna carry a gun as a EMT I go get my gun, vest, And tac gear and go do a raid with the swat team.

I dont think it's neccesary and I can remember my first image of unproffesionalism came when I was 17 and doing a search for a 52 y/o drowning victim and we called for mutual aid assistance 4th day in and this off duty cop/FF showed up with a lowslung 45 on a thigh rig with 2 extra mags on the other side when asked why he brought he said he knew family can get outta hand sometime,:sad:

 

[tydek07]

I carry nothing for protection. I guess my radio, hehe, sneaky emergency (oh sh*t) botton... but that won't do a thing for me when I need something NOW

 

[Jon]

...
Anyone that thinks that someone could get a hold of my or a cops gun easily never watched or took a weapon retention course, keeping in control of your weapon is not that hard with just class room teaching on how to do so.

#1 We all know of at least one local LEO that doesn't always bring their A-game to every call for service... it only takes a moment of inattention and someone else can have control of a firearm, especially if it isn't carried in a good retention holster.

#2 I've made the case before that because I've been through some classes on carrying firearms for employment (security) I understand the risks involved much better... and since much of our work causes us to divert our attention away from situational awareness... like taking a blood pressure.

#3 I've got lots of local LEO's who will gladly show up and assist me in resolving my problems with an agressive person... my job is to keep myself and my partner safe until they get there... that means that we BACK AWAY from the patient and then stay back until the LEO's handle the problem.

Jon





Tropical:
The LCP is a nice start... but not much.



Vests aren't bad. I know some folks who wear them. However, impact weapons and OC are a legal question for each service/EMS region.