Rant about how much volunteers are hurting our profession

[usafmedic45]

Volunteers hurt EMS because they will always be the lowest common deominator that standards are watered down to please.

I don't know about that....you've obviously never dealt with TransCare ambulance out of Terre Haute! :lol: Also, let's try not to paint diverse groups with broad brushes.....not all volunteer agencies (hell not even most) have lower standards than their local paid services. The two tend to follow one another in terms of recruiting standards and often share personnel.

 

[firefighter170]

I feel that they hurt us by offering less than quality service and they do not want to get more education or newer better equipment, most of the the vollies around here are stuck in the mind set of this is how granddaddy did it and we are gonna do his way even though its outdated.

 

[FireResuce48]

I volunteer in a big combination department in the DC suburbs. Without the volunteers in this county the citizens would be screwed.
They don't have enough money for the paid firefighters/emt's they have.

We have to keep up with our certs do annual refreshers on certain things.

We log more training hours then our career staff in a year.

I read allot of the threads that are written here.

There is some good info on this site but there is a whole bunch of threads that just are full of big headed responses on how someone's way and thoughts are better than everyone elses. This place would be more enjoyable if it was easier to wade through the crap.

And i noticed a misplaced my letters in my username. Don't I look intelligent.

But apparently I am just a worthless job stealing tic so all is ok in the world.

 

[usafmedic45]

I feel that they hurt us by offering less than quality service

Have any evidence to back that up? Like so much in EMS, that claim is based on supposition and politics with no scientific data that I've ever seen to support either side conclusively.

they do not want to get more education or newer better equipment

You've obviously not spent a lot of time around any number of volunteer departments other than the handful in your area. Ever heard of a selection bias? I've worked in four different states (including the same area that FireResuce48 is talking about) both paid and volunteer and the volunteers have always been the ones going for as much training and education as they can get into. The paid guys- especially on the combination departments (read as "unionized fire departments")- tend to rest on their laurels/"disco patches" and not want to do any more than the bare minimum to keep their certs.

BTW, while my stance is that an all paid profession would be a great ideal, I don't see it happening any time so instead of *****ing about how much volunteers "suck" or deliver "substandard care", work on addressing those issues. Trust me, if you have evidence that they are screwing up in a significant way, you can take that to the state EMS agency, the county board, the city council, the medical director or (as a last resort) the news media and effect change that way. Whining about perceived issues on a forum, mostly without any credence to the claims you are making, is not going to do anything for anyone including the ones who need it the most (the patients).

most of the the vollies around here

That's a key phrase that causes your argument to look like nothing more than sour grapes. C'mon people...let's not get petty. If you actually believe something and really want to push the profession forward, have the stomach to actually prove your beliefs and not just waste your time and everyone else's by comparing the size of your genitalia to those of the department down the road.

 

[Luno]

I volunteer in a big combination department in the DC suburbs. Without the volunteers in this county the citizens would be screwed.
They don't have enough money for the paid firefighters/emt's they have.

We have to keep up with our certs do annual refreshers on certain things.

But apparently I am just a worthless job stealing tic so all is ok in the world.

See, here's where I think the difficulties lie, the problem I have isn't with volunteers, they have way more dedication and drive then I do. I don't think that I would do this for free. That being said, my issue isn't with the volunteers dedication, training, motivation or desire. There are volunteers that are slackers, but there are career personnel that are slackers as well, the difference is that the volunteers aren't paid, the career slackers are stealing from the system. My issue is simply that there are fewer groups abused more than EMS volunteers. "They don't have enough money for the paid firefighters/emts they have." If enough people die, local government will find the money, either to pay lawsuits, or they will decide to be proactive. I've been able to work with volunteers who are very well trained, so I don't think the system has been dragged down for them. I think the system has been brought to lowest common denominator for several reasons, to blame that only on volunteers lacks factual evidence. I'd also like to clarify that I don't see volunteers as a "worthless job stealing tick" but rather the victims in a game where someone is trying to get something for nothing. I appreciate all the volunteers that I work with, and I tell them the same thing. In my opinion, "They are being taken advantage of."

 

[usafmedic45]

If enough people die, local government will find the money, either to pay lawsuits, or they will decide to be proactive.

Trust me, it's not quite that simple. It's too easy to brush those numbers under the rug since they occur in ones and twos for the most part. Unless you can prove a great deal of negligence (which is not as easy to do as people think), it's still going to just be cheaper to pay the lawsuit off than to pour at least a million dollars a year into a paid EMS operation. You can argue it might save a few dozen lives per year, but I can guarantee the average taxpayer is not going to care that much since they can say "Oh, I don't plan on dying/being in an accident/getting seriously ill" and all they will ask is "How much are you going to raise my taxes?".

 

[SanDiegoEmt7]

I don't understand the big deal with volunteer services.

If you think they are badly organized: Change their oversight

If you think they are of lesser care: Require them to have to same certifications, or again change their oversight

If you are pissed because you feel they lower your earnings: understand where they are coming from. Many EMTs I know are volunteers at FDs that cannot afford to hire new FT employees, they use the volunteer program to gain experience at that fire department so that when there are positions available they can be more qualified to apply. In Southern California job competition is fierce. You can't be angry at someone for seeking skills/experience to get a job.

I don't even feel that firefighter/medics are underpaid. For a job that only requires one year of education and a fire academy I think that earning 50K+ is a pretty good deal. EMT earnings aren't relevant. You can't take a first aid course and expect a career.

Education is key.

 

[Ridryder911]

It just seems so idiotic to draw borders between us all at a time in our relatively young field of practice when we should be a united front. Most people still don't know what we are or what we do, and most people in the medical field look at us as adrenaline junkies whether we are paid or not.

Maybe we should stop the infighting and just concentrate on becoming better at our jobs and becoming more respected as a field of medicine.

The problem is those within EMS know very little to nothing of the profession. Very few know what national and even state standards are and how they are placed. Unfortunately, ignorance is not always blessed as we just can stand back and look at our profession in whole.

The old saying could never be more true of asking...."Is what we are continuing to do working?".... An absolute no, would be the answer. So why do we want to continue to do this?

As you pointed out many posts are repetitive, and I don't know how many assume after taking a few week course they have became experts in EMS. Which is ironic, when many ask on how to renew or how the workings of the profession occur. Again, something we fail to teach at all levels. So the repetitive posts occur because newbies assume that they are the first to post or ask.

Very few that posts here are really active within EMS as a profession other than riding in the truck (albeit paid or volunteer) or have any idea what is occurring in the profession outside their local city. For example, anyone know what is occurring at a special meeting at Florida at this time? .....

 

[upstateemt]

Volunteers save lives.

Not every community is large enough to provide paid services, to expect them to do so is to place an unfair financial hardship on them.

As a volunteer with a small town agency I maintain the same educational requirements expected of the paid service 30 miles down the road. In fact, our training and skills testing far exceeds that required by NYS. With 2 Paramedics, 4 Critical Care EMT's and 2 Basics my squad answers 340 calls a year, many life threatening emergencies that would result in a far poorer outcome if the patient were waiting the 30 minutes required for the paid service from the city.

I am also a Registered Nurse (of greater than 20 years) and I can say without hesitation that the time and training involved in maintaining my EMT Certification is far greater than my RN.

I don't know why this question keeps coming up, it's baseless and ridiculous. It's time for the paid people to GET OVER THEMSELVES.

 

[Sasha]

Maybe we should stop the infighting and just concentrate on becoming better at our jobs and becoming more respected as a field of medicine.

Some people won't let go of their old way without a fight. How can you get respected when many people still treat the profession as a hobby?

 

[medic417]

OK here is a brief response from me the OP. It's a shocker. I have seen and actually was a part of a volly system that put to shame most paid services. They took education serious. They held educational classes, they did training as well. In an emergency I would trust them with my life. I actually did twice but that is another story. On scene they could out perform any paid service I have seen. They actually knew the what, why, what to expect etc for everything they did. These volly Paramedics were are the best.

Now after saying that these same great Paramedics have caused much harm to payroll. In my area when we approach the city and county for pay raises they always throw it in our face that people do this for free, so why should we pay you more. Sadly the community of those Paramedics is in a better financial shape to pay than any of the other services I am involved with. You know the reason they have not gone paid? They are high paid professionals that use volly EMS for a tax write off. So because they insist on staying volly I and all the other professionals get lower wages so they can have their tax write off. That is not fair.

Now as to all the comments about if no vollys there would be no ambulance as their area can not afford. I call BS. With a shift in priorities money can be found. No you may not be the highest paid but you can be paid. I think I will start a new topic for input on how it can be done. If you can't wait go into my posts and you will find many ideas to make your volly service a paid one.

I'll be back later for more. Please keep this respectful so this does not get locked.

 

[upstateemt]

The analogy that because a person is a volunteer they treat EMS as a hobby is totally absured and faulty logic. Your attitude is what a previous poster was talking about when they discussed Ego issues in EMS.

You get a pay check, big deal.

I take the refresher classes right along side the paid EMT's. I test out right along side the "paid professionals" and I have to say that far more "paid professionals" fail their skills testing than the volunteers. The conferences and CEU lectures I attend are the same ones attended by the "paid professionals".

The flip side of your argument could very well be that volunteers are more dedicated that the professionals BECAUSE we are doing it without compensation. INDEED, when is the last time a "paid professional" missed an important family event, cancelled social plans, or had to go to their "paid job" with one hour sleep simply because they were trying to help their community.

I would much rather have someone take care of me because they wanted to be there than someone who was just doing it for a check.

There are good EMT's and bad EMT's on both sides of this issue, whether you are getting paid or not has nothing to do with it. One of the most incompetent Paramedics I have ever encountered works full time as a "paid professional". Her inability to provide even the most basic of care has nothing to do with whether she gets a pay check or not.

 

[Melclin]

I think the problem is that the EMT-B level requires so little education that it can be accessible to volunteers.

We have vollies for the same reasons as I suppose you all do: to fill low call volume areas. They have the same education as you might expect an EMT-B to have, sometimes more. Nobody considers it a profession, just a bunch of socially minded people helping their community in their spare time. And nobody is whining in the ambulance service, because all the paid professionals have real educations and practice at a level far beyond volunteers.

You can hardly go off too first aid class for 15 seconds, then wine about not being considered a professional and complain that volunteers can usurp you.

Nothing wrong with volunteers practicing at a volunteer level and augmenting the professional system. What you need are higher educational standards for paid EMTs.

 

[Ridryder911]

Volunteers save lives.

Not every community is large enough to provide paid services, to expect them to do so is to place an unfair financial hardship on them.

As a volunteer with a small town agency I maintain the same educational requirements expected of the paid service 30 miles down the road. In fact, our training and skills testing far exceeds that required by NYS. With 2 Paramedics, 4 Critical Care EMT's and 2 Basics my squad answers 340 calls a year, many life threatening emergencies that would result in a far poorer outcome if the patient were waiting the 30 minutes required for the paid service from the city.

I am also a Registered Nurse (of greater than 20 years) and I can say without hesitation that the time and training involved in maintaining my EMT Certification is far greater than my RN.

I don't know why this question keeps coming up, it's baseless and ridiculous. It's time for the paid people to GET OVER THEMSELVES.

Would you still perform nursing full time if you were no longer paid? .. Yeah, that's what I thought.

R/r 911

 

[upstateemt]

I think the problem is that the EMT-B level requires so little education that it can be accessible to volunteers.

We have vollies for the same reasons as I suppose you all do: to fill low call volume areas. They have the same education as you might expect an EMT-B to have, sometimes more. Nobody considers it a profession, just a bunch of socially minded people helping their community in their spare time. And nobody is whining in the ambulance service, because all the paid professionals have real educations and practice at a level far beyond volunteers.

You can hardly go off too first aid class for 15 seconds, then wine about not being considered a professional and complain that volunteers can usurp you.

Nothing wrong with volunteers practicing at a volunteer level and augmenting the professional system. What you need are higher educational standards for paid EMTs.

WHAT THE H#LL??????????????????????? I don't know what state YOU practice in but in my state and in the states I am familiar with the education and testing are the SAME regardless of whether you are paid or not.

In NYS the EMT B is a TWO SEMESTER COURSE followed by the same testing for all. My CC certification consisted of 16 ADDITIONAL credit hours and over 300 hours of clinical. Paramedic is another year with hundreds of hours added clinical. NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PAID OR VOLUNTEER.

You are totally wrong in your view of "volunteers" we practice at the same level of professionalism as ANY paid person. Because we have a "social" conscious in addition to being professional is a PLUS and an ADDED benefit.

 

[upstateemt]

Would you still perform nursing full time if you were no longer paid? .. Yeah, that's what I thought.

R/r 911

Yes, I would and I do. I volunteer my Nursing services with a local Hospice. Your question makes no sense however since like most people I need a paid profession in order to live. No one is faulting paid EMT's for using that skill to make a living we are simply saying don't call us substandard because we chose to volunteer as EMT's rather than be paid.

 

[ffemt8978]

Don't let the student tag fool you...some people here intentionally choose that as an indicator that they feel they are always a student in EMS. Constantly learning.

 

[medichopeful]

INDEED, when is the last time a "paid professional" missed an important family event, cancelled social plans, or had to go to their "paid job" with one hour sleep simply because they were trying to help their community.

Seriously?

 

[upstateemt]

Seriously?

seriously.
perhaps I should add the caveot, "and not gotten paid for it".

 

[medic417]

seriously.
perhaps I should add the caveot, "and not gotten paid for it".

One actually could argue that paid people care more for their community's because they are willing to be away from home. That they want to make sure response times are short. That they refuse to leave their community w/o the best in care. etc etc etc etc etc

You could also argue that vollys are selfish. That they do it for personal glory and satisfaction rather than doing whats best for the patient. That they want to be able to put lights etc on personal cars to draw attn to themselves. etc etc etc etc etc

Do I need to go on?