Questions surround paramedics' response to head trauma victim

[medic417]

My issue with the article was not about the lack of equipment or extra five minutes on scene. It was the described lack of action of the paramedics. Fifteen minutes on scene, fine. But fifteen minutes on scene with no vitals? Have family carry him to the truck?

And as one medic was being described as saying "It's not that serious" and calling him drunk when family is telling them there are no drugs or alcohol. When in your right mind do you ever tell the family that? When did YOU go to Medical school where you can determine the definite severity of a person's head injury? Did they have a lab to do a BAL in their truck? Even basics are taught that head injuries and hypoglycemia often mimics being drunk and to never make a butt of yourself and put you in the position to be sued by calling a patient intoxicated.

But is that actuall the way it happened or the way the family imagined it?

 

[Sasha]

But is that actuall the way it happened or the way the family imagined it?

I'm sorry my computer is currently having trouble opening the article so I can't go look up the direct quote, didn't one of the Medics claim that the family had said he was drunk? Why would someone tell them that when they had been there for the attack? Or are they trying to CYA now?

 

[Elliot]

i hate jumping to conclusions though i think these medics displayed poor judgment relating to this specific call.

 

[Aidey]

It really doesn't look good for the medics, and my guess is that there is at least some solid truths in the family's story, even if it isn't 100% accurate.

As for on scene time, I have to wonder where they are getting it from. Does the on scene time include the time they were staged? I had dispatch do that to me once, they were super busy and they marked the time in staging as the time on scene, throwing our on scene time off by about 15 minutes.

 

[RESQ_5_1]

Our area doesn't have MCR's or FR's. It's just me and my partner. So, we bring the stretcher with us. Most times we leave it outside, but close enough to use. Depending on the call, we might bring the Zoll. I have been caught short without it a couple of times. Like our "Fall off the toilet" that coded in front of us as we were getting vitals. That was also the time we needed the backboard and the pt's son brought us the stair-chair.

As far as domestics or assaults, that's why we stage until the scene is secure.

I completely agree with the Medic's decision to not call in the bird. By the time it's up and on scene, they would have been at the hospital by ground for some time. I have stood down STARS a couple of times because it was faster for me to transport by ground to the best facility.

 

[daedalus]

That is just wrong. I would have taken c-spine precautions and I would never had that Pt cuffed. That's just wrong. Why was family carrying the Pt? Why was the cop yelling at him also? no backboard or c-spine. com'on.

It is not fair for you to arm chair quarterback the scene. First, the paramedics were not even there when the patient was cuffed, and you are not aware of police protocol in the locality. Second, back-boarding patients is subject to protocol, which you are unaware of in that locality. In my county, Ventura, we are actually barred from using C-spine equipment in cases that do not pass the selective c-spine score we use.

I am willing to bet that Hoffman and the patients wife were disruptive, and that causes a delays in itself. We all know that we lose track of time on scene, and is it that hard to believe that a handcuffed and very combative trauma patient took 5 minutes longer to get inside the unit? I am going to take a wild guess that the paramedics were trying to move him when the neighbor off duty medic and the patients wife decided to take things into their own hands.

 

[daedalus]

Spoken as inexperienced providers would say.

I do NOT take any equipment in with me except my jump kit/bag. Very apperantly you have never walked into a domestic, stabbing, assault with all that crap to delay you from exiting the area. Over view your scene to determine what is needed and what is not. If possible have a First Responder (FF) obtain for you. As well, no sense dragging all the equipment with you to only find out you do not need it. LSB, C-collars do NOT save lives, you have time to obtain them.

Wow! A whole whopping additional five minutes... that is not really bad considering. If an additional five minutes would matter, there is no hope for them anyway.

As it reads.. patient was reported to be "combatitive" and even some of the bystanders described possible intoxication.

Again .. propaganda from a disgruntled patient. Must have recieved their bill.

R/r 911

I tend to agree with rid/ryder, see my post above

 

[rescuepoppy]

Have to agree with Rid about what to actually carry in with you. As for what happened in this type of situation their are usually more than one story. I would like to see statements from everybody that was actually there before i make any sort of judgment on what happened. This is not giving support to either party tjis is just wanting to get the whole story before I say anything.

 

[VentMedic]

Instead of looking at this news article as something to judge if "they" did everything right, why not use it as a training situation to discuss your own alternatives for a similar situation. The reason some of us post these controversial news stories is to get some thinking so you too won't make headlines in a newspaper. If mistakes were made by others, learn from them. Also, learn why explanations to the family and patient are important so your actions are not perceived negatively.

 

[triemal04]

Did these paramedics screw up? Very possibly.
Is the family misrepresenting what happened due to personal bias, stress, anger, lack of understanding or multiple other reasons? Very possibly.
Are there multiple questions that need to be answered before any conclusion is reached? Absolutely.
Is ANYONE who has either condemned OR condoned what these paramedics did wrong right now? Yep.

Why is it that cases like this always get knee jerk reactions from people who where not there and have no info other than what is reported in a newspaper? As paramedics and even EMT's we are supposed to be able to use critical thinking skills; why is it that that ability seems to go right out the window when something like this pops up?

Might want to consider the following questions:
They were on-scene for 20 minutes...why? Did it take that long to restrain the pt? Where they staged and really there for only 5-10 minutes? Did it take that long for the family/neighbor to relay what had happened?
The neighbor reports that he restrained the pt after a deputy wasn't able to...and carried the pt outside. Does this sound like someone who may have been a problem on-scene?
The neighbor reports that one medic went to get the stretcher and then he and the wife carried the pt outside...why? Did they wait for the stretcher at all? Would it have been difficult to get a stretcher inside?
What was the family AND neighbor's mental state? Seeing a friend/loved one in extremis can cause ANYONE to lose it for a bit.
The pt was given a GCS of 6 by the neighbor...maybe a bit low for someone who is supposedly that combative.
What was the GCS and condition of the pt on arrival at the hospital? And that means what was it really, not what the family reported.
What are the paramedics protocols for restraint? Can they even assist, or do they have to wait until someone else does it for them?
What was the info given during dispatch?

These are just a couple of things (from one side...there's plenty more from the other) that need to be answered before anyone even thinks about giving a thumbs up or thumbs down to this.

 

[JPINFV]

^
Hence why my questions were based mostly off of the written statements of the two paramedics that were published with the article.

 

[triemal04]

^
Hence why my questions were based mostly off of the written statements of the two paramedics that were published with the article.

Sure, don't get me wrong, there is a lot of info that they also need to come up with, and it may turn out that they were in the wrong. What bothers me is the reaction that a lot of people have when something like this happens. Not from the general public; I expect that and it doesn't really bother me. But when people who are supposedly trained and educated to work in this field start jumping to conclusions when there are glaring problems with the story...makes my blood pressure get a bit high.

 

[Ridryder911]

As one that handles complaints, I can assure the perception and truth is not always the same. For example, one complaint is that it took an EMS unit to respond 25 minutes, when in reality they had < than 3 minutes. Now, what I can describe is due to poor communication 911 system it was probably delayed for a little while crossing multiple dispatchers. Yet, the response time itself should not be questioned.

Again, perception is something to consider.

What does concern me evfen more so is the repsonse from the seasoned Paramedic. Not much in detail to CYA. As well, how did the press obtain such. Incident and variance reports should NEVER be allowed to public and especially to the media. Appears to me there is more problems internally that needs to be cleared up.

R/r 911

 

[emtfarva]

I guess there is three sides to every story, yours, mine, and the truth. Your are right about jumping to conclusions.

 

[karaya]

As well, how did the press obtain such. Incident and variance reports should NEVER be allowed to public and especially to the media. Appears to me there is more problems internally that needs to be cleared up.

R/r 911

How did they (the press) obtain info from the patient report? Easy! The patient went and requested a copy of his PCR on file from the EMS provider and then shared the information with the press.

Furthermore, many states have open record laws concerning investigations. Florida, for instance, has some of the most liberal (man, I hate that word!) open record laws in the country. I was amazed at the volumes of information concerning the investigation of a paramedic that was provided to me for an article that I writing.

 

[rumedic]

The Paramedics on scene were found to be wrong for attitude tword family.

They were told that they should have carried all c spine eq in to call:wacko:

and that they should not have stated that lifestar could not fly combative pt. The paramedic should have stated that the flight would be delayed due to pt needing rsi before flight.

The Paramedic were in scene trying to get pt to stop hitting everyone. the police were trying to handcuff him to protect all on scene. He was out of control. and the paramedic that was on scene before ems arrival was freaking out screaming at everyone and he himself was on the verg of arrest. the ems paramedic finally went to truck to get c spine eq and that when the "friend paramedic" and the pt wife carried the pt instead of waiting for imm eq. Then she (wife) got on top of stretcher and stated she was going to ride to hospital holding him down needless to say the scene was crazy. they loaded the pt and called er and gave report and asked if they, the ER agreeded to transport direct to level 1 trauma center, the ambulance then left the scene (it did not get turned around) the pt was transported on a approx 35 min transport. from the time of attack to arrival at er less that 1 hr. he is back at work doing fine..
the media in Hilton Head is still trying to bury these two medics.

 

[reaper]

The Paramedics on scene were found to be wrong for attitude tword family.

They were told that they should have carried all c spine eq in to call:wacko:

and that they should not have stated that lifestar could not fly combative pt. The paramedic should have stated that the flight would be delayed due to pt needing rsi before flight.

The Paramedic were in scene trying to get pt to stop hitting everyone. the police were trying to handcuff him to protect all on scene. He was out of control. and the paramedic that was on scene before ems arrival was freaking out screaming at everyone and he himself was on the verg of arrest. the ems paramedic finally went to truck to get c spine eq and that when the "friend paramedic" and the pt wife carried the pt instead of waiting for imm eq. Then she (wife) got on top of stretcher and stated she was going to ride to hospital holding him down needless to say the scene was crazy. they loaded the pt and called er and gave report and asked if they, the ER agreeded to transport direct to level 1 trauma center, the ambulance then left the scene (it did not get turned around) the pt was transported on a approx 35 min transport. from the time of attack to arrival at er less that 1 hr. he is back at work doing fine..
the media in Hilton Head is still trying to bury these two medics.

So you were one of the two medics that was on this call? If not, it is all rumors and no new information was added to the story!

 

[triemal04]

So you were one of the two medics that was on this call? If not, it is all rumors and no new information was added to the story!

Sort of...there are things said in that post that haven't been in any news story (which never contain all the facts as most people know). Whether or not they are accurate is open to speculation given the anonymity of online forums. But, if only half of that was true, hopefully it makes people think twice before they attempt to judge someone on the basis of a single newspaper article without having all the facts in hand.

 

[VentMedic]

So you were one of the two medics that was on this call? If not, it is all rumors and no new information was added to the story!

This is probably someone who is just trying to discredit some issues or has a beef with the paramedic. If this is one of the medics on this call, I don't believe their attorney(s) will be too happy if they find out that one of the EMS medics is on the internet talking trash when there may still be legal action pending.