Police Based Paramedics

[ExpatMedic0]

I can understand some points from those of you that support this structure, but I still stand by it being a terrible idea.

I could rant and rave all night about many things but I will just name a few.

1. Many of our patients are low income high risk populace. A large portion of those folks dislike the police and do not trust them. The police also feel the same way about many of them.

2. Those LEO's ignoring the fact that there pt's have been taking illegal drugs and breaking the law are breaking there LEO oath. Paramedics and LEO's are two completely different professions just like nurses and LEO's or Doctors and LEO's, would you consider combining those two professions? To much conflict of interest.

3. Mentality, its *** backwards. As I have stated before LEO's have became angry(and threatened me) at me in the past because I have treated a DUI driver/pt. first before the sober MVC victim due to his/her priority and MOI.

4. The picture above of the Paramedic police officer beating someone with a night stick is a perfect example. Its the most idiotic *** backwards job combination I have ever herd of in my life. The only exception to this being a tactical medic for CERT/SWAT operations which is the only example of a LEO medic I think is a good idea.

 

[FLEMTP]

double post my apologies

 

[FLEMTP]

I can understand some points from those of you that support this structure, but I still stand by it being a terrible idea.

While I appreciate your right to your own opinions... I fail to see the logic in your arguments. See below

I could rant and rave all night about many things but I will just name a few.

1. Many of our patients are low income high risk populace. A large portion of those folks dislike the police and do not trust them. The police also feel the same way about many of them.

Do you trust the low income high risk populace? Do you trust the high income low risk populace? You should consider the fact that if LEO's do no trust them, it is with good reason. This is a situation in which cross training would benefit you and other EMS providers by giving you a different perspective that would allow you to ultimately be safer in performing your duties, even if just giving you a greater situational awareness.

2. Those LEO's ignoring the fact that there pt's have been taking illegal drugs and breaking the law are breaking there LEO oath. Paramedics and LEO's are two completely different professions just like nurses and LEO's or Doctors and LEO's, would you consider combining those two professions? To much conflict of interest.

Ahh.. so its wrong for a LEO to not arrest or cite someone committing a crime? Just like medicine, law enforcement is not so black and white. Would you prefer a ticket for speeding when you're stopped... or a warning? By your logic you would insist that a citation be issued or an arrest be made every time a LEO witnesses you commit a violation of law.

Comparing a doctor's role with a LEO's role does not make sense. Doctors and nurses typically do not respond (with or without lights and sirens)to the scene of a situation or call for service and render aid. Both paramedics and LEO's do... and both paramedics and LEO's end up on the same call for service a majority of the time. Its like taking your car into a repair shop, but having to call for 2 mechanics.. one to repair your brakes and one to repair your engine... why not allow the same person to do both to avoid an overabundance of resources being used on a single situation?

3. Mentality, its *** backwards. As I have stated before LEO's have became angry(and threatened me) at me in the past because I have treated a DUI driver/pt. first before the sober MVC victim due to his/her priority and MOI.

Yet another situation in which cross training would benefit both you and the LEO. If those same LEO's were trained in EMS, they would understand the logic you used to reach your treatment decision. Many times they look at the situation and dont understand why you decided to treat the drunk driver over the injured victim... just like you might not understand why a LEO felt the need to deploy his taser on an unarmed subject who wont listen to what he says.

4. The picture above of the Paramedic police officer beating someone with a night stick is a perfect example. Its the most idiotic *** backwards job combination I have ever herd of in my life. The only exception to this being a tactical medic for CERT/SWAT operations which is the only example of a LEO medic I think is a good idea.

Going by your logic, a SWAT medic would be the biggest conflict of interest imaginable. In most situations, the role of the SWAT trained paramedic is to support the functions of the SWAT team members, and protect their well being before all others. In a situation where a SWAT team makes entry into a home for a high risk warrant for example, and there are shots fired, the SWAT medic is to assure the safety and well being of his team prior to engaging in the lifesaving efforts of any other injured people on scene. In fact the SWAT medic might find themselves having to be the one to pull the trigger that fires the deadly shot. So, if your SWAT team had to use deadly force to stop a threat made on the team, but a SWAT team member became injured in the process, your duty is to the SWAT team member first, and the civilian that was shot second. This goes exactly against your rationale used in the beginning points of your post.

So, one must assume either you are not aware of the duties and responsibilities of a SWAT medic ( who is many times a fully crosstrained LEO and paramedic) or you have a hypocritical argument where you do not support cross trained medic/LEO's but you do at the same time.

Please do not take this as a personal attack by any means, I like to debate and engage in thought provoking conversation. I was trying to understand your logic, but was unable, and would appreciate further clarification of your points, based on my responses.

 

[wolfwyndd]

I can see where a couple of you are coming from...to an extent. I worked extensively with the Genesee County Sheriff Dept Deputy-Paramedics.
[snipped for brevity]
I could go on all day with examples of the benefits behind cross training in EMS and Law Enforcement, but I hope ya'll get the idea where I'm coming from.

Wow. Thanks. That's probably the most thorough, and convincing, argument I've heard for LE based EMS. Still not convinced, but understand it much better now.

I know Ohio actually recently passed a law that says that all LEO's need to be trained to the First Responder NREMT level. I'm completely ok with that because, as you said, a majority of the time, they are first on scene so they can do some basic things till the ambulance gets there. Of course, I know of quite a few jurisdictions are stalling on this too because they just don't want to do it. I know we've had a couple of cardiac arrests were by the time we've gotten there, the cops have already started CPR for us.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

well that sucks, my session timed out and I lost everything I just tried to post. Ill just give it to you in a nut shell.

Police officers and Paramedics are two completly diffrent jobs, with 2 completly diffrent missions. Thats why cops have a degree in Criminal Justice and Paramedics have one in science.

To take a cop and put him through 18 months or more of Paramedic school and maybe even require atleast an AAS in addtion to his departments degree,education and training standards for the LEO side is excessive.

Then to take the same cop and stick him on a 911 ALS ambulance is a waste. They are two completly diffrent career paths, 2 completly diffrent educational and training content, 2 completly diffrent mind sets and they attract two completly diffrent people for the most part.

If you think people on this forum bash fire fighter Paramedics running 911 ambulances, I can only imgane LEO Paramedics running 911 (if that became the mainstream, which it is not thank god, for a reason)

As Paramedics we are health care providers.... the only thing we share in common with the police are scence operations and driving... but %95 of Paramedic text is medical... WE DO have more in common with Nurses and Doctors because they are other health care providers.

SWAT/CERT and TEMS is a competly diffrent subject I will start a new thread on if you like. We are only dicussing patrol police officers and 911 ALS Paramedics for now right?

Hell if you want to combind Police and Paramedics we might as well cross train them as fire fighter also right? Have just 1 super emergency respoder thats a jack of all trades and master of none!

 

[Shishkabob]

Hell if you want to combind Police and Paramedics we might as well cross train them as fire fighter also right? Have just 1 super emergency respoder thats a jack of all trades and master of none!

They exist, and I've heard no complaints about those agencies.


But hey, if we can have FF/P why can't we have LEO/P? LE is a much better fit for EMS anyhow.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

Or why not just have a Paramedic? Doesn't that make the most since? Thats what they do in the UK and Australia and most other modern well trained EMS systems. Those guys have bachelors degree IN EMERGENCY MEDICINE! Dosent that make more since?

Or how about this.... Require 2 years of training for the paramedic side, 2 years for the police side and 2 years for the fire side.... an AAS for the Paramedic training a Fire science degree for the fire side and a criminal justice degree for the police side, then combined all those into a masters degree, offer the same rate of pay any one of those profession make now and let me know how many people you can recruit.

We should focus more on our own profession and getting up to speed with the rest of the modern world before we even consider main like this.

 

[Shishkabob]

Yes, it does make more sense* and that's what I am for, but alas, people argue for fire based EMS so my counter-point is why not LE based EMS, to which no one has yet to come up with a valid reason to have fire based and not LE based EMS.


*sorry it was bugging me

 

[ExpatMedic0]

This was an interesting topic. I was just wondering if anyone else had anything else to add?
Even though I still disagree with the idea, some good points where brought up.

 

[VentMedic]

Or how about this.... Require 2 years of training for the paramedic side, 2 years for the police side and 2 years for the fire side.... an AAS for the Paramedic training a Fire science degree for the fire side and a criminal justice degree for the police side, then combined all those into a masters degree, offer the same rate of pay any one of those profession make now and let me know how many people you can recruit.

Considering the shift in job markets, there are now several entering LE and even health care with Masters degrees. California just had an article where many of their recent recruits were from other professions with advanced degrees and were taking a cut in pay to make a career change. The PDs are welcoming an older and better educated recruit. Nursing is also seeing more people doing the Masters entry level programs by using previous degrees to change careers. While the experience will still need to be obtained, there is a difference in maturity from the older recruits.

Some young people also do spend 4 years in college obtaining a degree in Criminal Justice until they are old enough to join some of the PDs which prefer one to be 21. A Masters is then not that far out of reach and the departments will generally pay for their education. EMS should be so lucky to have the entry level education that PDs see form their new recruits who do start at the bottom in an academy but may have plans for their future. Once one has obtained a Masters degree, getting a Paramedic cert probably would require very little effort since the study discipline has already been developed.

Right now, the Paramedic is still a certificate in most of the U.S. Even Oregon seems to have its exceptions since that state is allowing you to finish your Associates degree while working as a Paramedic. Thus, one could actually get a LE cert, FF cert and Paramedic cert in 18 months. They could then decide what they wanted to do later or get picked up by a PS department like Sunnyvale. But, Sunnyvale will also hire someone and put them through the necessary academies.

By your logic, the U.S. should not have any teachers with more than a certificate or Associates degree either since that profession is notorious for low pay. Yet, teachers somehow manage to have at least a Bachelors and probably a Masters as well as doctorate degrees. Could it be the way they feel about their chosen profession and want to maintain a high professional status for the benefit of their students even if the pay is not there?

 

[EMT11KDL]

Anyone know of departments in the U.S. that use police based paramedics? I only know of a couple and i know there are more. Thanks!

Andrew

http://www.co.davis.ut.us/sheriff/default.cfm

Davis County, UT... they are a very good agency. Every Sheriff Deputy is a Utah Paramedic.

 

[Packman]

Nassau Long island: http://www.police.co.nassau.ny.us/eab.htm

QUOTE]

I volunteer in Nassau County, and this is not strictly true. The AMTs who work for the Nassau County PD Emergency Ambulance Bureau are not sworn law enforcement, and do not carry firearms. (AMTs are either EMT-CC or EMP-P level and practice ALS.)

It's actually an odd system. AMTs are assigned to an ambulance, alone. When there is a call for an aided case, the ambulance with the AMT is dispatched, along with two squad cars of regular police. When a patient is transported, the AMT is in the back, one officer drives, and the other follows so he can return the driver to his car. In an arrest or other case where more than one provider is needed in the back, either a second ambulance in dispatched, or an officer will ride to assist. All officers were trained as CFRs, and many are EMT-B or higher.

As an aside, The Port Authority Police Departmnt (covers the NYC airports, among other places) also uses armed police as ALS responders. I just handed a patient off to them last week when someone had a seizure on my flight into JFK. . .

 

[KiloSierra]

late response

If you've never been there, it's an amazing place to visit. It's one of the only hospitals right now dedicated to only Trauma. 24 hours a day they have amazing cases. I actually transported a patient there once by ground. It was about a 45 minute drive on I-95 with a priority 1 suspected spinal trauma. Because our closest level II trauma center was filled with patients they couldn't handle it and referred us to Shock Trauma.

Not only does the MSP troopers have Paramedic/Cops, but also Eagle 1, 2 & 3 of the United States Park Police, they too have amazing capabilities with river rescues and more. From what I hear, it takes a lot of time to move up the ranks. From being a street cop or trooper for a year or two, and slowly move up the ranks once you get your paramedic.

Any chance I could get an update on the MSP LEO job? Im finding that those jobs are disappearing as most places are cutting the medic part. Is its a good job/ do they take care of their people? any info helps.

 

[NomadicMedic]

https://www.mdsp.org/Careers/TrooperMedic.aspx We just had one of our candidates leave and join MSP. he couldn't be happier.

 

[KiloSierra]

https://www.mdsp.org/Careers/TrooperMedic.aspx We just had one of our candidates leave and join MSP. he couldn't be happier.

Thanks for the reply. I read and re-read the MSP's site and it seemed vague and rather Army… "You may then submit a request to transfer into the Aviation Command", Are they always approved? Does that mean I may end up working the road as a regular trooper? Or does it mean I may work as a Trooper medic on the road? Already having my NREMT Paramedic I WILL be keeping a medic job.
I am just terrified of uncle sam sticking it to me again, saying "oh yeah you'll do ____".. then I end up packing and unpacking connexes for months….

 

[NomadicMedic]

From what I understand, if you're recruited in as a medic you WILL be a medic. But, you still have to do cop stuff.

 

[EMDispatch]

From what I understand, if you're recruited in as a medic you WILL be a medic. But, you still have to do cop stuff.

That's correct, rumors are due to lack of hires, hey have considered dropping the cop requirements, but I would not count on it happening. Currently in their new copters, they are flying with 2 medics on board, 1 paramedic, and a flight trooper in training at at least an EMT level. What they have done is lowered the recruiting standards. You used to have to be a paramedic with several years of experience now you just need to be an EMT with several years of experience.

 

[medicsb]

no offense but you guys who think the fire department based EMS is terrible.... WTF are people thinking with LE based EMS?

Seriously...

 

[Tigger]

That's correct, rumors are due to lack of hires, hey have considered dropping the cop requirements, but I would not count on it happening. Currently in their new copters, they are flying with 2 medics on board, 1 paramedic, and a flight trooper in training at at least an EMT level. What they have done is lowered the recruiting standards. You used to have to be a paramedic with several years of experience now you just need to be an EMT with several years of experience.

Eek.

 

[NomadicMedic]

The good thing is, medics on the Maryland helicopters get a lot of experience, quickly. Those guys fly everybody.