Parents Sue Police Over Death of Down Syndrome Man

[Christopher]

They probably didn't have one. They were off-duty, moonlighting as security guards. Which actually makes me wonder if they were even supposed to engage him physically.

Yeesh...so some moonlighting folks did this? Talk about a System Failure.

Call 911, wait for the folks on duty to handle it...better yet, don't moonlight and you won't get put into these situations.

Pre-existing conditions contributed to his death, it's certainly a tragedy but I don't see how the deputies are responsible.

You could argue EMS was contributory due to multiple failed attempts to secure an airway (I have no idea how they tried, but they noted it was "difficult" to put a "breathing tube" in place...which given how ridiculously uneducated the media is[1] I have a hard time knowing what they really did).

Long and short of it is this probably wouldn't have happened if we took a ride in a retrospectowagon and chose another path. The likelihood of that path being taken by other similarly trained individuals in the same situation is what we should look at.

I'd chance to wager this would have gone poorly no matter the jurisdiction.

[1] They're roughly as uneducated about EMS as EMS is about medicine. It is often hard to tell which one is worse.

 

[CFal]

In many places officers retain powers off duty, if they are supposed to just call pd then there is no point in hiring security.

 

[Aprz]

In many places officers retain powers off duty, if they are supposed to just call pd then there is no point in hiring security.

I know this happened in Maryland, but in California, security guards are like scarecrows. If something happens, they are taught to "observe and report". To get a guard card, the class is initially 8 hours, half of that is on weapon of mass destruction (similar to TEEX AWR 160 and FEMA IS 3).

 

[CFal]

These guys obviously have much more training than that

 

[CFal]

http://phoenix.gov/police/help/off_duty_work_detail.html

This is the city of Phoenix policy

 

[Aprz]

I commented because you said there would be no point in hiring security if they had to call the police department. In my area, you are suppose to stay back, "observe and report", call the police department. They may have violated their companies policies, or they may not have off duty powers in their area.

 

[PotatoMedic]

http://phoenix.gov/police/help/off_duty_work_detail.html

This is the city of Phoenix policy

And a quote from the policy:

The officers you hire are expected to provide you with the same level of service they would provide the public while in an on-duty capacity. The intent is to have a positive relationship between your business, the Phoenix Police Department and the public.

 

[Aprz]

But that's Phoenix (Arizona)? This happened in Maryland. I am saying it may be different.

 

[Rialaigh]

So how should they have diffused this situation then?

I am fuzzy on the facts (as the article does not provide much) but no where does it say that the guy who died damaged any property, threatened anyone, or was aggressive (until after provoked by officers). It also says he uses a wheelchair....

I understand it is a big guy, I understand that he was doing something illegal. However this is about on par with telling a mentally handicapped guy to turn around and put his hands on the car so you can search him, then tasing him when he doesn't respond the way a mentally capable adult would.


Honestly from what little the article says it doesn't look like the situation needed diffusing, It looks like the officers enflamed a situation that was previously completely controlled....

You wait on the caregiver, you don't even need an officer, you have movie theater management thank the care giver and tell them they are welcome back anytime, just be sure to buy a ticket....I mean, basic customer service...

If anyone has any other articles indicating that this guy was just violent and aggressive and damaging property prior to any police intervention that would be news to me...

 

[CFal]

One article said he punched out a store window, he was not in a wheelchair, he may use one on occasion but not the day of the incident

 

[ffemt8978]

I am fuzzy on the facts (as the article does not provide much) but no where does it say that the guy who died damaged any property, threatened anyone, or was aggressive (until after provoked by officers). It also says he uses a wheelchair....

I understand it is a big guy, I understand that he was doing something illegal. However this is about on par with telling a mentally handicapped guy to turn around and put his hands on the car so you can search him, then tasing him when he doesn't respond the way a mentally capable adult would.


Honestly from what little the article says it doesn't look like the situation needed diffusing, It looks like the officers enflamed a situation that was previously completely controlled....

You wait on the caregiver, you don't even need an officer, you have movie theater management thank the care giver and tell them they are welcome back anytime, just be sure to buy a ticket....I mean, basic customer service...

If anyone has any other articles indicating that this guy was just violent and aggressive and damaging property prior to any police intervention that would be news to me...

Contradicting yourself there? You admit to being fuzzy on facts yet are will to make that claim based upon it?

 

[exodus]

I am fuzzy on the facts (as the article does not provide much) but no where does it say that the guy who died damaged any property, threatened anyone, or was aggressive (until after provoked by officers). It also says he uses a wheelchair....

I understand it is a big guy, I understand that he was doing something illegal. However this is about on par with telling a mentally handicapped guy to turn around and put his hands on the car so you can search him, then tasing him when he doesn't respond the way a mentally capable adult would.


Honestly from what little the article says it doesn't look like the situation needed diffusing, It looks like the officers enflamed a situation that was previously completely controlled....

You wait on the caregiver, you don't even need an officer, you have movie theater management thank the care giver and tell them they are welcome back anytime, just be sure to buy a ticket....I mean, basic customer service...

If anyone has any other articles indicating that this guy was just violent and aggressive and damaging property prior to any police intervention that would be news to me...

The caregiver told them to just let him chill out afaik.

 

[Aidey]

The caregiver told them to just let him chill out afaik.

That was what my understanding was. She told them that he didn't like to be touched, and to back off and let her handle it.

 

[usalsfyre]

I'm quiet stunned by some of the replies here. It honestly frightens, disappoints and angers me at the lack of understanding of special populations.

Quite simply, special needs children and/or adults will not react the way the majority of the population would. If a caregiver who is familiar with that individual makes a suggestion, it's really best you follow it.

As for the "misplaced strikes" theory. I call malarkey. It's truly difficult to fracture an airway with a strike. It's far more likely someone put a knee in his throat. OF COURSE they didn't want to kill him, but if they inappropriately escalated the situation (and I don't know if they did or not) then they are responsible for his death. That's the standard I as a citizen am held to, it should be no different for a law enforcement officer.

 

[EMDispatch]

I'm quiet stunned by some of the replies here. It honestly frightens, disappoints and angers me at the lack of understanding of special populations.

Quite simply, special needs children and/or adults will not react the way the majority of the population would. If a caregiver who is familiar with that individual makes a suggestion, it's really best you follow it.

I strongly agree with the sentiment, the problem is how huge a gray area this can be for a for public safety. Following a caregivers advice and approaching the situation with a different mentality should be the norm.However, while they may be Intellectually Disabled (ID), they still are physically developed to their appropriate age level. At some point you have to change from dealing with their capacity to understand versus the physical threat he/she can pose.

It's call that I'd never want to make, and I'm sure the vast majority of public safety professionals would ever want to make. Hopefully, those deputies made a conscious and deliberate choice based on the situation, but account on that definitely vary.

 

[exodus]

I'm quiet stunned by some of the replies here. It honestly frightens, disappoints and angers me at the lack of understanding of special populations.

Quite simply, special needs children and/or adults will not react the way the majority of the population would. If a caregiver who is familiar with that individual makes a suggestion, it's really best you follow it.

As for the "misplaced strikes" theory. I call malarkey. It's truly difficult to fracture an airway with a strike. It's far more likely someone put a knee in his throat. OF COURSE they didn't want to kill him, but if they inappropriately escalated the situation (and I don't know if they did or not) then they are responsible for his death. That's the standard I as a citizen am held to, it should be no different for a law enforcement officer.

So you think we should have just let him continue to destroy property?

 

[usalsfyre]

So you think we should have just let him continue to destroy property?

As opposed to escalating the situation to physical violence that lead to his death? Abso-f$cking-loutely. Anyone who says otherwise needs to take a long, hard look at their value system.

 

[exodus]

As opposed to escalating the situation to physical violence that lead to his death? Abso-f$cking-loutely. Anyone who says otherwise needs to take a long, hard look at their value system.

The chances of him being killed from what the officers knew were very slim. Just because he is mentally retarded doesn't mean he has free reign. If he is dangerous, which he was by how he acted. He should have been institutionalized where he could have been kept safe. When he becomes threatening, he needs to be controlled.

 

[DesertMedic66]

I've read only a couple of the news stories about this. There are always 2 sides to the story so I'm not gonna say who is in the wrong. The off duty officers could have used excessive force or they could have used the force needed to handle the issue.

I'm not an expert in special needs however I have had some special needs patients who's caregivers were unable to control them. So for everyone's safety they were forceably restrained by PD. Now if this person was acting like any of my patients, he could do a lot of damage even if he was in a wheelchair. 294 lbs is a pretty good sized person to restrain special needs or not.

 

[CFal]

There are always 3 sides to the story, both sides and the truth.