Our new CPR Protocols: Hands-Off Chest w/ Plungers

MMiz

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Yesterday we were all trained in the use of two new devices for CPR. Our protocols have us now backboarding / C-Collaring all CPR patients, applying a plunger-like device to their chest, and another to the BVM. We are then to do CPR in the field for 30 minutes prior to transporting in the ambulance. This in a county where we are always 10 minutes away from a hospital. Let me explain.

This device looks like a plunger two two handles and a metronome. We apply this device, and it forms a suction to a patient's chest. CPR is then started, but instead of just pushing down, we are also to pull so there is no pressure on the device. They think this greatly improves the CPR process. This is to go on for 30 minutes before we begin transport. I'd say 75% of the crew, even the most buff guys, got tired after two minutes.

Picture:
re140.jpg


Then a ResQ device goes on the BVM or ET tube, and that has little lights on it too. It flashes 12 times a minute, and that's when we squeeze. For BLS without an ET tube, we are to strictly do 15-2.

The reasoning behind this is as follows:
- Many in EMS are severly limiting CPR by hyperventilating pts. Studies show that most do 30 breaths per minute, which is "lethal" (they're already dead right?)
- Most in EMS do not come off the chest when doing CPR. This study shows that CPR in an ambulance, unless someone is sitting behind the person holding them up, is completely useless. They argue that the recoil, or allowing the chest to rise, is just as important to the compressions. We now do CPR lifting slightly off the checst with every compression.

They did studies on pigs and in other regions, and found this to be extremely helpful. It's absolutely traumatic to watch, but I'd like to see it actually done in the field.

Anyone heard about this?

Edit: Link to ResQ-Valve:
http://www.vidyya.com/vol6/v6i313_6.htm
 

Chimpie

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You have to do compressions for 30 minutes prior to transport? Are you kidding?

I can probably guess why they are saying that. If a hospital is that close they are probably thinking the EMTs are probably just loading and going, not providing critical blood flow prior to transport. But 30 minutes can be too long.

Where does the AED fit it to the protocols?
 

rescuemedic7306

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Sounds like a crock to me....when was the last time you saw them do CPR in the ER for 30 minutes? Some of these bean counters need to actually try doing CPR before coming out with these ideas....imagine the family standing around while you (or me) jack around for 30 minutes before taking their Mom or Dad to the hospital and then the patient is pronounced on arrival. I smell lawsuits in the wind!
 

Stevo

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iirc, there's a story behind this, something to do with an actual toliet plunger on scene....

one wonders if the code happened in the kitchen instead of the bathroom what manner of utensile would have been used eh? :eek:

~S~
 

Strike3

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We have this wonderful thing called the Revivant...

Zoll, the maker of the monitors some of us use just purchased this company. This big board sits underneath the PT. You line them up and then velcro the straps across the chest. Press start, it measures the chest size, and then starts compressions. It does 15, and pauses for ventilation for 3 seconds, then starts again. Compressions are so good with this machine, that you can get a BP off it, and when you start a line, if you don't get the lock on, it will spurt blood.

Kinda like a firefighter in a bag..
 

vtemti

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I like the good ole hands on way of doing things. That is the way that I learned and all of these new guizmos and gadgets take away the human touch. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing I can't definitely say, so I will take the 5th.

It may work, but as for the 30 minute on scene time, what a bunch of crap! Only being 10 minutes from more definetive care, I think not. :angry:

Remember the chain of Life?

Early access - Early CPR - Early Defib - Early Definetive Care

Key words here = Early x 4!!!!!!!!
 

TTLWHKR

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Originally posted by Chimpie@Jun 9 2005, 06:18 AM
You have to do compressions for 30 minutes prior to transport? Are you kidding?

I can probably guess why they are saying that. If a hospital is that close they are probably thinking the EMTs are probably just loading and going, not providing critical blood flow prior to transport. But 30 minutes can be too long.

Where does the AED fit it to the protocols?
Well, They are already dead... :blink:

Can't kill em anymore.

Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen to me.
 

emtbuff

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I'd like to see a couple people off of our squad do CPR in the field for 30 minutes with an additional 10 min transport time your talking 40 minutes of CPR. I don't even think I could do CPR that long but I have done it for oh probley about 15 minutes. Then let one of the other gals do it she lasted not even a block and we were running hot back to the hospital so I started again. Life is so much fun isn't it. :D
 

TTLWHKR

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After 30 minutes flat of CPR #1 anyone would be tired.. but w/ some of the people I've seen in EMS, we'd be doing CPR on crew members after half that time.
 

Strike3

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Originally posted by TTLWHKR@Jun 9 2005, 01:40 PM
After 30 minutes flat of CPR #1 anyone would be tired.. but w/ some of the people I've seen in EMS, we'd be doing CPR on crew members after half that time.
Agreed....What is it with out of shape people and EMS?
 
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MMiz

MMiz

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Like I said, even our most fit members were tired after two minutes using this method. Our members weighing less than 125 couldn't even get the plunger to the marked depth, forget about the rest.

It was funning watching us do it. One guy would do it for two minutes, literally roll over, and the next guy would pick up.

They say they don't want us transporting prior to 30 minutes.

Our company sends 3 medics to all calls, and I can't imagine how three would be enough, I'm guessing we're going to start dispatching two whole units.

We'll see
 

Jon

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Originally posted by Strike3@Jun 9 2005, 10:35 AM
We have this wonderful thing called the Revivant...

Zoll, the maker of the monitors some of us use just purchased this company. This big board sits underneath the PT. You line them up and then velcro the straps across the chest. Press start, it measures the chest size, and then starts compressions. It does 15, and pauses for ventilation for 3 seconds, then starts again. Compressions are so good with this machine, that you can get a BP off it, and when you start a line, if you don't get the lock on, it will spurt blood.

Kinda like a firefighter in a bag..
at EMS Today, Zoll had a contest to see who could do 5 minutes of "perfect" CPR against this - the person who came closest each day won one of their BRAND NEW AED's for their sqaud. I stunk. I didn't come off the chest... it DOES make a difference

Jon
 

Firechic

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Does the "plunger" work on an obese person or is that a contraindication?
 
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MMiz

MMiz

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Originally posted by Firechic@Jun 12 2005, 11:18 PM
Does the "plunger" work on an obese person or is that a contraindication?
Yep, we use it on obese people. If it doesn't form a seal, then it would be just like doing CPR as we do normally.
 

CodeSurfer

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One of the side effects is a massive hickey left on your chest if you do survive 30 minutes of cpr in the field.
 

Stevo

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CPR continues to change for us. In fact, i was an instructor for 8 or so years , yet in the wee hours my 'autopilot' isn't always up to the latest standards

what is interesting is, how the ARC and AHA approve new circ's and or ajuncts based on field study

it's just so volitale and raft with variables...like our rural codes of 45 minutes + , great workout actually, completely tip the statistical scales though....

now i like my toys, don't get me wrong, but i have to side with the Boss on this one

I like the good ole hands on way of doing things.

everybody!

reach out....<span style='color:blue'>reach out and touch someone</span>

:p

~Stevo
 
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