Officer points gun at firefighter responding to a call

[TransportJockey]

But he had state issued EMS plates....

NM has EMS plates that any certified EMT or medic can request for their POV. It's the same as any other specialty plate (college, sports team, etc). I think that might be what they are talking about there

EDIT: Sounds like a plate w/ no legal standing in terms of special treatment.
http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/drivers/vehicles/personal/special/emt.htm

 

[Aidey]

We yield to PD when running code in the amb.

 

[medic417]

But he had state issued EMS plates....

That does not make it an official car. Several states allow certified people to get plates but they are not the same as those issued for emergency vehicles.

 

[OfficerEvenEMT]

Whether you believe him or not he broke the law by failing to pull over. He at that point is a criminal until proved otherwise. He should be glad his tires didn't get shot out. If he was legit he should have been able to call dispatch to patch through to the cop and let him know he was responding to a call..

Like I said before, I don't know if strict liability applies in this case. It's conjecture to consider it without getting a legal consult or a judge to rule.

 

[OfficerEvenEMT]

Weather or not the FF was in an official vehicle or not doesn't matter. He was legitimately and legally displaying a flashing red light and was observing traffic laws such as stopping at stop signs, using turn signals, etc. He was under the impression that the LEO was also headed to the FD, which takes away and mens rea argument.

Is an EMT who is in a POV and headed to a call while displaying a red light supposed to stop when a LEO is trying to pull him over? First you have to prove that the EMT/FF knows that the LEO is trying to pull him over (use the radios, people!). If he knows and still doesn't stop then you have to determine who the law defers to. It likely changed from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I truly don't know.

 

[Tigger]

You are in an official vehicle. The guy in discussion was not. Big difference.

Except for the part about the law conferring him emergency vehicle status. This is a fairly common statue, not all POV lights are courtesy lights...

Second, if the red lights were authorized by his organization, that makes him an emergency vehicle in Wisconsin. The law actually says that if he's responding to an emergency call, the use is appropriate. If the police department has an issue with how the fire department is interpreting the law, that's an issue for administration of the two agencies to deal with; not on the side of the road.

http://statutes.laws.com/wisconsin/347/347.25

 

[medic417]

Except for the part about the law conferring him emergency vehicle status. This is a fairly common statue, not all POV lights are courtesy lights...

Technically even the lights on your ambulance are just a courtesy asking for the right away. The ff has the right to run them but not to disregard the laws.

 

[Tigger]

Technically even the lights on your ambulance are just a courtesy asking for the right away. The ff has the right to run them but not to disregard the laws.

There is a significant difference between courtesy lights and emergency lights. Courtesy lights do not allow for the user to violate any traffic laws, emergency lights do so long as it is done with due regard.

The motoring public is not doing us a favor yielding to us, they are required to by law.

 

[Hunter]

This is stupid, both of them need to stfu and get over it. Neither of them was right. The FF cooperated as soon as he realized the cop was talking to him and the cop put his gun away as soon as he realized there was no danger. This is the perfect example of how two departments need to stop fighting with each other and learn to cooperate...

 

[Farmer2DO]

When they got to the fire station I agree with the police officers tactics a little bit. I wouldnt have told the suspect to get back into his vehicle, where he could potentially have access to a weapon, I would of had him lay on the ground. But he was wearing a shirt with what looked like a badge on the chest. I didnt see anything on the back of it saying he was a volunteer fire fighter.

Except there's that issue about him running the plate. And dispatch confirming that it belonged to a member of the fire department. That they pulled in to. That was getting an emergency call. That had other members there preparing for a response. Yeah, pulling his gun and pointing it at his head was completely logical.

Officers safety is the number one priorty.

Wanna know what's more important? Making sure your officers aren't needlessly endangering the lives of the citizens they're supposed to protect. Like when they cross the center line of a hill with no emergency lights. Like when they're going 101 mph and there's NO documented criminal activity.

Now for the ff. Running code/hot for a non emergency code is against his department policies.

First, it WAS an emergency job. It came into a 911 call center, and was dispatched to the FD. By definition, it's an emergency job. Second, it's NOT against his department policies. The fire chief actually says that they encourage their members to use judgement when deciding how to respond. Oh, and there's that bit about the call actually being a refrigerator fire. That would have been worse had it not been extinguished by the FD.....

I am not sure what oregons law is for volunteers

Glad to see you read the article, and all the posts, and the link I put up. This actually happened in Wisconsin. The village is Oregon.

and having lights but in texas the pov needs to have 360 degree visibility for emergency lights. The lights have to be visible up to 300-500 hundred feet. Plus the firefighter needs to have displayed on his vehicle fireman, firefighter, or a departmental decal(thats from my chief). I did not see any of those on the ff vehicles.

So what? He wasn't in Texas.

Lastly the ff was in a pov.

Nope. As defined by Wisconsin law, he's an emergency vehicle.

I know my chief has stated, along with the DPS captain for my area, that even though our pov's are considered emergency vehicles in Texas if we do not yeild right of way for marked police officers then we are going to be in trouble, because at the end of the day we are still in our POVs.

Again, this guy was in Wisconsin, not Texas. He was an official emergency vehicle, responding to an emergency (a fridge fire that could have been a structure fire if not extinguished) with his emergency lights running. His assumption was reasonable.

The ff, and the entire department, needs to be disciplined if they are violating departmental policy by using lights and sirens for non emergency calls.

That's the thing, though. They're not violating department policy. The chief is actually backing them up. The police department is claiming some policy by Dane County claiming that they're not to respond lights and sirens for these calls (which was mis-classified, by the way). But I doubt if they actually have any authority over individual departments. If I was the department, I'd tell them that we take care of our own liability insurance, and we'll be the ones with our heads on the chopping block if someone's house burns down (because their fridge that's on fire gets out of control because we considered it a non-emergency), so we'll set our own policies, thanks.

The LEO didn't do much in the way of error.

Except drive completely recklessly. Without due regard for the public. Without evidence of a crime.

All I can say if that this could have been severely deescalated had the LEO made a call to dispatch and dispatch being aware of what's happening in their county.

Yes.

You in your pov? If not doesn't apply this discussion.

You are in an official vehicle. The guy in discussion was not. Big difference.

This guy was in pov not in emergency vehicle. Was not registered as emergency vehicle.

Actually, according to Wisconsin law (if you had read my link), he is defined as an emergency vehicle.

Technically even the lights on your ambulance are just a courtesy asking for the right away.

Absolutely untrue. Yes, they give emergency vehicle operators the right to violate vehicle and traffic laws, but they also mean that people that don't pull over are breaking the law. Traffic is required to yield the right of way to an emergency vehicle.

First of all I think that the law suit is simply ridiculous.

Well, the police department is deflecting all the blame to the fire department. They completely backed their officer in a high speed chase (when there was no evidence of a crime), not using his lights at night, cresting a hill across a center line, and driving 101 mph. They then accuse the FF for not driving with due regard. You know, they guy that used his turn signals and stopped at stop signs. Way to cover your own, guys. And they wrote him a ticket. For assuming they were going to the same call. Then did an "internal investigation" and decided there was no merit to the complaints. So the only way to get them to pay attention is to file a claim. (BTW, he hasn't filed a lawsuit yet.) If the village of Oregon would address the issue, this would go away. But they won't. And they're making the FF out to be the bad guy. So I don't blame him one bit.

 

[medic417]

Except there's that issue about him running the plate. And dispatch confirming that it belonged to a member of the fire department. That they pulled in to. That was getting an emergency call. That had other members there preparing for a response. Yeah, pulling his gun and pointing it at his head was completely logical.



Wanna know what's more important? Making sure your officers aren't needlessly endangering the lives of the citizens they're supposed to protect. Like when they cross the center line of a hill with no emergency lights. Like when they're going 101 mph and there's NO documented criminal activity.



First, it WAS an emergency job. It came into a 911 call center, and was dispatched to the FD. By definition, it's an emergency job. Second, it's NOT against his department policies. The fire chief actually says that they encourage their members to use judgement when deciding how to respond. Oh, and there's that bit about the call actually being a refrigerator fire. That would have been worse had it not been extinguished by the FD.....



Glad to see you read the article, and all the posts, and the link I put up. This actually happened in Wisconsin. The village is Oregon.



So what? He wasn't in Texas.



Nope. As defined by Wisconsin law, he's an emergency vehicle.



Again, this guy was in Wisconsin, not Texas. He was an official emergency vehicle, responding to an emergency (a fridge fire that could have been a structure fire if not extinguished) with his emergency lights running. His assumption was reasonable.




That's the thing, though. They're not violating department policy. The chief is actually backing them up. The police department is claiming some policy by Dane County claiming that they're not to respond lights and sirens for these calls (which was mis-classified, by the way). But I doubt if they actually have any authority over individual departments. If I was the department, I'd tell them that we take care of our own liability insurance, and we'll be the ones with our heads on the chopping block if someone's house burns down (because their fridge that's on fire gets out of control because we considered it a non-emergency), so we'll set our own policies, thanks.




Except drive completely recklessly. Without due regard for the public. Without evidence of a crime.




Yes.







Actually, according to Wisconsin law (if you had read my link), he is defined as an emergency vehicle.


Absolutely untrue. Yes, they give emergency vehicle operators the right to violate vehicle and traffic laws, but they also mean that people that don't pull over are breaking the law. Traffic is required to yield the right of way to an emergency vehicle.

You have accepted a lot of untruths in your life. When you are the cause of that wreck because you disobey the traffic laws I want a piece of the millions the people injured or killed will be awarded.

 

[ffemt8978]

Emotions seem to be running a bit high here, so everyone take a deep breath and relax or this thread will be closed.

 

[Farmer2DO]

You have accepted a lot of untruths in your life. When you are the cause of that wreck because you disobey the traffic laws I want a piece of the millions the people injured or killed will be awarded.

You mean, like when a police car crests the hill across the center line, with no emergency lights? Or when he's doing 101 mph for a case of no documented criminal activity?

Actually, I'm a pretty safe emergency operator. I don't know what untruths I've accepted. Where I work, I frequently respond "green" to calls that are supposed to be "red". Almost all the time, in fact. And I probably transport "red" less than 1% of the time. So don't accuse me of being the one that will cause wrecks. I'm good, thanks.

Trust me, this guy is far more of a risk than I am.

 

[medic417]

Emotions seem to be running a bit high here, so everyone take a deep breath and relax or this thread will be closed.

You need to find some monks chanting or some yoga mumble jumble to play during these moments.

 

[Farmer2DO]

I'm very relaxed. Zen. I'm actually bradycardic, I'm so low keyed right now.

 

[OfficerEvenEMT]

In regard to the LEO driving very fast, not using his L/S at the beginning on the call, and cross the double line- that needs to be addressed. It all depends on what and why. There was an issue of LE impersonation and it's entirely likely that the LEO thought this was the guy. For that reason I don't find much of an issue with his speed, but I do find issue with not using L/S and for crossing the double lines. Those two can be remedied by some additional training.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

I think both the FF and the LEO would do the world a favor if they refrained from breeding.

 

[exodus]

Whether you believe him or not he broke the law by failing to pull over. He at that point is a criminal until proved otherwise. He should be glad his tires didn't get shot out. If he was legit he should have been able to call dispatch to patch through to the cop and let him know he was responding to a call..

I don't know what country your from, but here you're innocent until you're proven guilty.


His lawsuit is perfectly valid. He said he would drop the suit if the department agreed on doing annual firearm and evoc training. Why the officer didn't get on his PA and tell him to pull over is BEYOND me.

 

[VFlutter]

Why the officer didn't get on his PA and tell him to pull over is BEYOND me.

That is what I thought as well. If it is common to have multiple emergncy vehicles responding to a call in this area, including police, I could see where the FF would not have thought the officer was pulling him over. Also, he was driving very conservative for someone trying to outrun the police.

Do police and fire share a common radio channel?

 

[exodus]

That is what I thought as well. If it is common to have multiple emergncy vehicles responding to a call in this area, including police, I could see where the FF would not have thought the officer was pulling him over. Also, he was driving very conservative for someone trying to outrun the police.

Do police and fire share a common radio channel?

We can all access a channel called "Calcord". It's specifically for inter-agency cooperation.