Legibility of Posts

[Ridryder911]

Some discussion of use of general language and writing skills have been discussed in other posts. To prevent from hijacking a thread, I have presented an addendum.

Rid I'm going to disagree - there is a difference between writing in a professional publication and on a web forum. On a forum like this the standard decorum is a little less strict - how many emoticoions do you see in JEMS? Similarly, no one (myself included, exept that you brought the issue up) would say boo about the multiple sentence fragments, mis-used semicolon, etc. in your last post, because it is still readable despite that. I'm pretty sure i misspelled something in this post, but overall I think it's not unprofessional looking, and thats sufficent for me.


Medication names are a whole different ball of whacks, becasue there are so many that sound alike or are spelled alike, and a lack of precision can, and does, kill patients. This issue is getting a lot of attention at the moment, and some govenrment body just released thier report about medical errors, and found that the impact from errors such as misspelled medications is huge. I'm sure google could reveal the name of the report, for those interested.

Ironically you brought up JEMS. Have you wondered why JEMS is so easy to read? The editorial section reviews material and does not allow anything above high school level reading level to be published. So reality, one cannot describe JEMS as a "scientific or even a professional journal.

No one is definitely describing professional writing techniques on this forum, and definitely not APA format, or a having grammar police after someone. Rather general writing techniques that represents our profession and ourselves (those that make up our profession) as being at least educated enough to make full sentences, and minimal spelling errors. As you pointed out, I myself make plenty of errors. The reason being, as you described ... "it is on a forum" ...

I am (like others) tired of seeing poor or gross writing techniques blamed upon ones medical certification level. Again, we are talking about something that should have been taught at the fifth grade level. It has nothing to do with EMT or medical levels. Again, spell check is available for free to use before posting.

Ever wonder why there is so little participation from the masses of EMS professionals? It would seem that many of those that write articles or publishes would participate in EMS forums. Sorry, many of the "professionals" rather not have a dialogue with someone that cannot communicate properly. I know I have heard physicians describe that the .."medic might be good in skills, but he places doubts, when he/she opens their mouth"... Yes, we are judged upon our basic interpersonal communication skills or lack of.

Again, I much rather be flamed or "personally attacked" , that is if I could read it. I can defend myself, and have thick enough skin to tolerate any post. Although, that itself is not necessary to get a point across.

I personally do not think anyone is asking for much. To be able to use general English grammar, punctuations, and spelling in a post. If we are going to be presumed as professionals, let's at least present this image.

R/r 911

 

[Rattletrap]

Can I beat him with a wet noodle? Correction
May I beat him with a wet noodle?

Even though JEMS articles are easy to read, there are a great number of editors who's job is to proof the articles. A single article may go through at least 5 people before the article is published. I have no plans on hiring someone to proof anything that I may post here.

 

[Meursault]

<3

I picked the right forum. Sometimes, a high tolerance for pedantry is a good thing.

I'm sometimes terrified by the thought that the people mangling English online are responsible for diagnosing and treating patients, then writing it up. It's unfair on my part, but mistakes really do reflect poorly on one's competence.

Effective communication is the most important goal on a forum, and abbreviations, fragments, emoticons, etc. get the point across without needless typing, but spelling and basic grammar mistakes hinder communication and distract from a post's message.

After all, the Internet is serious business.

 

[Asclepius]

Can I beat him with a wet noodle? Correction
May I beat him with a wet noodle?

Even though JEMS articles are easy to read, there are a great number of editors who's job is to proof the articles. A single article may go through at least 5 people before the article is published. I have no plans on hiring someone to proof anything that I may post here.

Thanks for that input. My wife works for Elsevier and takes a great deal of pride in her job and the companies commitment to education and improving the lives of people who choose to give themselves for the care of others.

No offense RR, but I rather like the fact that JEMS chooses to make the results of scientific studies easy to read. I don't like dealing with science and wondering if I actually understood correctly everything the study was trying to communicate. I have read many so called Journals and maybe I am just stupid, but I often wonder what the hell I just read. Also, I like that JEMS allows me to have an inside look at how other agencies are working things out around the world.

This Forum, and others like it, serve a similar function. Sure there may be grammatical and spelling errors, but for the most part people here seem to be genuinely interested in helping others succeed. I have learned a great deal from forums like this. I have even changed some of my clinical practices because someone gave me something to consider. And it helps that I can be on here and it is not a formal setting...I don't have to worry about being absolutely perfect, because others are going to point it out to me.

Of course, this is all just my opinion.

 

[Ridryder911]

I agree it does not have to be "perfect" by far, but at least legible. As far as JEMS, I think it is an okay trade magazine, however; it should never be considered as a professional journal.

Unfortunately, that is part of the problem in EMS; most are not taught on how to read, and interpret scientific findings like other health care professions. Then again, this is a different topic.

My main point is at least posts on an medical professional site, should represent that those involved have at least an above a fifth grade level language skills.

R/r 911

 

[Rattletrap]

I picked the right forum. Sometimes, a high tolerance for pedantry is a good thing.

I'm sometimes terrified by the thought that the people mangling English online are responsible for diagnosing and treating patients, then writing it up. It's unfair on my part, but mistakes really do reflect poorly on one's competence.

Effective communication is the most important goal on a forum, and abbreviations, fragments, emoticons, etc. get the point across without needless typing, but spelling and basic grammar mistakes hinder communication and distract from a post's message.

After all, the Internet is serious business.

I need another wet noodle!

I have made this statement in court, "I am not from England, I am from the United States of America, and thus I do not speak English."

I will continue to battle the oppression of the colonies by mangling the English language.

Hmmmmm? Maybe we should talk grammar? I know my grammar slips from time to time.

I am here to relax and maybe help someone or learn from someone through dialog. If we keep jumping on the grammar and spelling bandwagon we will chase people off. I have left a few forums for just that.

 

[Rattletrap]

I agree it does not have to be "perfect" by far, but at least legible. As far as JEMS, I think it is an okay trade magazine, however; it should never be considered as a professional journal.

Unfortunately, that is part of the problem in EMS; most are not taught on how to read, and interpret scientific findings like other health care professions. Then again, this is a different topic.

My main point is at least posts on an medical professional site, should represent that those involved have at least an above a fifth grade level language skills.

R/r 911

I fail to see how an "Online Forum for EMS-Related Discussion" makes this a medical professional site? I see it as a place for EMS personnel and those interested in EMS to gather and have discussions. That makes a big difference.

Many successful executives in fortune 500 companies can not communicate, in writing, above a fifth grade level with out their secretaries and administrative assistants.

 

[jrm818]

No offense RR, but I rather like the fact that JEMS chooses to make the results of scientific studies easy to read. I don't like dealing with science and wondering if I actually understood correctly everything the study was trying to communicate. I have read many so called Journals and maybe I am just stupid, but I often wonder what the hell I just read. Also, I like that JEMS allows me to have an inside look at how other agencies are working things out around the world.

.

This is auctally a more interesting topic to me than the grammer stuff - I think we can all agree that the ability to communicate is crucial.

It does trouble me that even paramedic programs in general don't include at least basic stastics or reserach methods (I'm only a basic, but im in college, and got my stastics and research stuff through other classes for my major - I think basics could obviously benefit from such education, but given the already minimalist curriculum, I wouldn't hold my breath). The result is paramedics who, unless they seek extra training on thier own, lack the apparatus to grapple with highly technical reserach publications. You're not alone in approaching a reserach journal and having no idea what is going on. These publications are very dense, and if you have not been given trained to read them, they read like gibberish.

Really I think the best thing woudl be for paramedic classes to walk medics-in-training through a couple of difficult research papers in close detail. You'd be shocked how much of a difference it woudl make to have done that once or twice. If medic programs were really intersted in producing professionals ready to go thorugh a career in EMS, they woudl prepare them to deal with the changes in the field.

Now in fairness, I acutally don't read JEMS - It's not available online through my school, and I dont pay for it. I think i've read maybe 3 articles from the journal ever, so I'm not very familliar with the content. However, I would suspect that a lot of the nuances of studies are brushed over if they include abstracts which are intentionally written for ease of reading or comprehension. Those nuances are often incredibly important, but unfortunatly cannot be understood without prerequisite knowledge of stastics, at a minimum. Theoretically the medic education would provide the background medical knowledge necissary to understand the studies, but I'm not in a position to evaluate that.

So no, you are not stupid, but reading journal articles is a skill that needs to be cultivated, and seem insurmountable at the beginning. I dont konw if this has ever been tried, or there woudl be any interest, but maybe you could start a journal-club type discussion here, and try to work through some denser non-JEMS articles, using the knowledge here as a kicker to help get you going. Nothing against JEMS, it may be an excellent publication, I don't konw. But the ability to read articles in a number of publications is very worthwile.

 

[jrm818]

I fail to see how an "Online Forum for EMS-Related Discussion" makes this a medical professional site?

Many successful executives in fortune 500 companies can not communicate, in writing, above a fifth grade level with out their secretaries and administrative assistants.

EMS = Emergency medical services
working in EMS = a profession

medical + profession + internet website = medical professional site

 

[Rattletrap]

EMS = Emergency medical services
working in EMS = a profession

medical + profession + internet website = medical professional site

I edited my post for clarity.

I would expect more formality for this to be a professional site. I would be using the terms: Sir, Mr. Ms. etc ...... when addressing someone. I would not expect to see someone using the nick names we are using.

Another wet noodle for calling me Mr. Rattletrap.

 

[Ridryder911]

I am here to relax and maybe help someone or learn from someone through dialog. If we keep jumping on the grammar and spelling bandwagon we will chase people off. I have left a few forums for just that.

I am not so much on the "bandwagon" but at the same time, but should we not point out gross mistakes and poor communications skills ? Personally, is this the type of person we want representing our profession? Sorry, skills is only small part of the job. One cannot improve the profession, without being professional.

I doubt that anyone that is scared off a forum for mistakes on grammar will last in the field very long, if they are that sensitive.

Again, not trying to "make a mountain out of a mole hill" dilemma; but just common use of basic language skills should be expected on any site. There are some posts that has to be re-posted due to inability to distinguish what is written.


R/r 911

 

[jrm818]

I edited my post for clarity.

I would expect more formality for this to be a professional site. I would be using the terms: Sir, Mr. Ms. etc ...... when addressing someone. I would not expect to see someone using the nick names we are using.

Another wet noodle for calling me Mr. Rattletrap.

Dear. Sir,

I wish to sincerely thank you for your input. I wish to recall to your attention, however, a fact of which I am sure you are very much aware. I acutally was the impetus for the beginning of this little tangent, a feat which I accomplished through the valiant defense of informality on a website. An individual of your discernement would surely realize, however, that there is a gross difference between informality and unprofessionalism or incomprehensibility. It is the latter which I believe have raised concern here, and I suspect that most would find your posts most unimpeachable.

I wish you the best of luck in your honourable defense of the self-determination of the colonies.:usa:

Respectfuly yours,

Mr.-

hows that one?

 

[Rattletrap]

I am not so much on the "bandwagon" but at the same time, but should we not point out gross mistakes and poor communications skills ? Personally, is this the type of person we want representing our profession? Sorry, skills is only small part of the job. One cannot improve the profession, without being professional.

I doubt that anyone that is scared off a forum for mistakes on grammar will last in the field very long, if they are that sensitive.

Again, not trying to "make a mountain out of a mole hill" dilemma; but just common use of basic language skills should be expected on any site. There are some posts that has to be re-posted due to inability to distinguish what is written.


R/r 911

I left because of the grammar/spelling police over reacting. They were not on my case but it was disgusting to see them jump on people and make grammar errors themselves.

 

[Rattletrap]

Dear. Sir,

I wish to sincerely thank you for your input. I wish to recall to your attention, however, a fact of which I am sure you are very much aware. I acutally was the impetus for the beginning of this little tangent, a feat which I accomplished through the valiant defense of informality on a website. An individual of your discernement would surely realize, however, that there is a gross difference between informality and unprofessionalism or incomprehensibility. It is the latter which I believe have raised concern here, and I suspect that most would find your posts most unimpeachable.

I wish you the best of luck in your honourable defense of the self-determination of the colonies.:usa:

Respectfuly yours,

Mr.-

hows that one?

That is funny and only took 12 minutes to come up with. Much respect to Mr.jrm818 esquire. :beerchug:

 

[Emtgirl21]

So I guess me and my dyslexic self should not post anything for R/R to read. Ugh excuse me while I go bang my head into the wall. "Highly" educated people (or those who think they are) make me sick!

 

[Ridryder911]

So I guess me and my dyslexic self should not post anything for R/R to read. Ugh excuse me while I go bang my head into the wall. "Highly" educated people (or those who think they are) make me sick!

You can as well as any others post however you want to, but if you want to make a point make it at least legible enough for someone to read. Remember, how and what you communicate is a representation of you.

I would not describe writing above a fourth grade level as being "Highly" educated, but if you do, so be it. If you are truly dyslexic, you then would realize the increasing need to "proof read" everything.

If you want to be taken serious as a professional, then one should act and present themselves as one. As well, I would purchase a helmet and a emesis basin if you plan to be in the medical field. There are "highly educated" people all around, that are far more "crude" than myself, that have no problem discussing the need in having and writing at least basic level communication techniques.

Again, I don't believe presenting topics using basic language skills is asking too much from a group of so called medical professionals. Amazing, medical professionals (or at least, self acclaimed) arguing over if they should be using correctly spelled common words, and using minimal composition skills. Can you imagine what the public or other medical peer groups could be perceiving? Would you condone being perceived ignorant? Do you really think this raises our image as being a highly educated profession, that someone should trust their lives upon?

R/r 911

 

[Meursault]

Hmmmmm? Maybe we should talk grammar? I know my grammar slips from time to time.

I am here to relax and maybe help someone or learn from someone through dialog. If we keep jumping on the grammar and spelling bandwagon we will chase people off. I have left a few forums for just that.

I'm not big on perfection, just legibility. If i condense my entire post into an uncapitalized run-on sentence like this it becomes harder for everyone else on the forums to understand what i'm talking about and spelling errors just make it worse i've found myself skipping dense blocks of text like this in threads and then having to go back because the poster actually said something important and besides spelling mistakes in fairly simple words are a pet peeve of mine although i'm less picky about grammar.

We're not submitting to Academic Emergency Medicine or NEJM, but this also isn't Bungie's Halo 3 forums (scary place, those). It seems like we need to strike a balance between correction (and accepting criticism) and full-on grammar flames. I'll be happy to join you in wet-noodling anyone who complains about grammar in the humor forum, for instance. And yes, the scorching burst of flame that some new people have received is a bit harsh, but it does a good job of weeding out the thin-skinned and provides an incentive to RTFrules and use the search bar.

 

[skyemt]

i think it's important to remember how this all got started...
on another thread, an emt misspelled 4 meds...

no one is saying you can't make grammatical mistakes... but when it comes to meds, arguably one of the most important parts of our job, it helps to spell them correctly...

if you went to an accounting forum, and you found some grammar mistakes, no big deal... but if you saw 4 math mistakes in one post, really, would you want to give him your taxes to do?

it's really no different... and issue of personal credibility in one's field... some mistakes are ticky-tack, and no bid deal, but others seem like a very big deal, like maybe we are not really high quality, just like math errors for an accountant... would it help if he said it was a long day, and it's just a forum, blah-blah.. i doubt it would sway anyone to change their minds...

this is the issue we are really all talking about here, isn't it?

 

[Ridryder911]

That is part of it, and some other common words that are misspelled. Such as wood versus would, etc. Like I described, I don't believe anyone here is expecting graduate level composition, but at least common knowledge in how to communicate somewhat appropriately. Yes, relaxed but within a common form of usage.

Again, I almost find it humorous any "medical professional" would even debate against using nominal grammar and usage of correct spelling.

I do believe this is a hot topic for many; far more than just the usage of language. I believe the source goes back to training versus education. Expectations are uniquely different, and thus causes difference in opinions.

The problems continues into the the workforce. I Q.I. call reports from different agencies, and have even worked for attorneys representing both sides. It is amazing, how sloppy and poorly EMT's (all levels) get in documenting. Again, however; right or wrong it might be; opinions are based upon communication skills. If we do not at least point out extreme gross errors on sites like this, we are condoning them.

Again, the old adage, if your not part of the solution, your part of the problem.

R/r 911

 

[firetender]

I'm all for clarity and taking the time and making the effort to respectfully communicate with others. Like Rid, sometimes the casualness of some of the writers gets to me, and, like him also I do see that the way we communicarte with each other can be a reflection of how we are percieved as a profession.
Within that, I also want to be a voice for this to be a place where we can relax with each other, make a mistake here and there -- maybe even look foolish now and again.
As far as spelling and grammar goes, I left EMS in 1985 and pretty much have supported myself since writing for executives who can't put a subject together with a verb on paper. I was astounded at how our educational system almost completely dropped writing properly from its emphasis. No matter what you studied, writing well was part of the grading. No more.
Couple this with the HUGE influence of MTV, sound bites, e-mail and quick-cut EVERYTHING and, to be honest, I don't blame anyone here (especially those under 30) to even realize the difference. That's not a dis, it's a reflection.
I think it all boils down to each of us knowing when we're being sloppy. This site, and each of us on it, deserves our attention and care.