Where do you get the idea that consent doesn't matter to us? My patients are more than welcome to refuse my interventions. It has happened many times before. They can refuse to be seen at all. I have had many refusals that I have no doubt had negative consequences or eventually were seen due to what was going on. In any of the above situations, as long as they can make informed choices then they can do as they wish. I'm not interested in fighting people who adamantly refuse to listen to what I have to say.
forced catheterization
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PotatoMedic
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Let me state my last paragraph again.
My advice to you is to not join a community to attack us. If you want change be constructive and not accusatory. Maybe it is just how I'm reading it at midnight but your posts seem to have a strong agenda without much constructive dialogue.
Now read it again slowly so you understand the part about having a constructive dialogue and not just attacking people.
Survivor2222
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Healthcare providers need to value consent more. As a profession, as a field, there is a huge need for greater respect for consent.
That’s not an attack on you.
It’s interesting that you take it as an attack. So be it. I don’t control how you take it.
That’s not an attack on you.
It’s interesting that you take it as an attack. So be it. I don’t control how you take it.
Survivor2222
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Read it again slowly what I posted. Slowly.
Because telling you to read slowly is clearly a sign of respectful dialogue?! Geez.
Here’s a mirror.
Because telling you to read slowly is clearly a sign of respectful dialogue?! Geez.
Here’s a mirror.
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Survivor2222
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Moving on.
https://www.statnews.com/2018/02/05/larry-nassar-doctors-sexual-assault/
http://doctors.ajc.com/part_1_license_to_betray/
Are the authors of these articles by health care professionals and respected writers also attacking you personally when they declare there is a greater need for respect for consent and safety in the health care profession?
Is every person staying that forced procedures come at a cost to the person, sometimes symptoms of traumatization that causes years of suffering, if not worse, an attack on you?
Or is it perhaps a statement of reality that you personally just don’t want to face. Because you would then have to wrestle with difficult feelings about choices you have perhaps made. I don’t know.
But your defensiveness about the issue is interesting. There are a growing number of voices stating there is anneed for change. Because there is.
My stating forced procedures can and do regularly cause lasting harm and expense and are generally done way too easily and way too often with little regard for patients is not an attack on you. It’s a statement of fact.
If you disagree with my statement, by all means, please discuss. Don’t insult my intelligence my telling me to read slowly. Instead. Provide evidence and argument and discussion that I am wrong. That the many people standing up for change and a greater respect for patient rights are wrong. That all the courts that have ruled most forced catherizations are being done when they should not be. (Google what’s happening in South Dakota and California on the very issue of forced catherizations on cases just like the OP described here.)
I don’t care if you insult me. Doesn’t change my opinion and the need for change so that fewer people are traumatized by forced procedures.
https://www.statnews.com/2018/02/05/larry-nassar-doctors-sexual-assault/
http://doctors.ajc.com/part_1_license_to_betray/
Are the authors of these articles by health care professionals and respected writers also attacking you personally when they declare there is a greater need for respect for consent and safety in the health care profession?
Is every person staying that forced procedures come at a cost to the person, sometimes symptoms of traumatization that causes years of suffering, if not worse, an attack on you?
Or is it perhaps a statement of reality that you personally just don’t want to face. Because you would then have to wrestle with difficult feelings about choices you have perhaps made. I don’t know.
But your defensiveness about the issue is interesting. There are a growing number of voices stating there is anneed for change. Because there is.
My stating forced procedures can and do regularly cause lasting harm and expense and are generally done way too easily and way too often with little regard for patients is not an attack on you. It’s a statement of fact.
If you disagree with my statement, by all means, please discuss. Don’t insult my intelligence my telling me to read slowly. Instead. Provide evidence and argument and discussion that I am wrong. That the many people standing up for change and a greater respect for patient rights are wrong. That all the courts that have ruled most forced catherizations are being done when they should not be. (Google what’s happening in South Dakota and California on the very issue of forced catherizations on cases just like the OP described here.)
I don’t care if you insult me. Doesn’t change my opinion and the need for change so that fewer people are traumatized by forced procedures.
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Survivor2222
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https://www.aclusd.org/en/news/aclu-south-dakota-takes-legal-action-stop-forcible-catheterizations
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/bjsports/early/2018/06/22/bjsports-2018-099403.full.pdf
http://www.urologytimes.com/modern-...ful-catheter-insertion-leads-bleeding-lawsuit
I find it stunning it a post Larry Nassau world that a community would be so resistant and defensive when someone suggests hey, before providers forced themselves inside someone’s geniltals, let’s make sure consent and dignity is being valued highly. Are there rare times when it can’t be obtained a procedure should be done anyhow? Yes. But there needs to be respect even in those times that’s what is being done is without consent and forced physical invasion into a body, even if it causes no harm, without consent can be extremely traumatizing. I am not even stating that forced procedures against someone’s will should never ever be done. I’m stating that it’s happening too often and with little regard for the common effect it has on people.
Many therapists are trained to be reluctant and hesitant to call for 911 help for trauma patients in a mental health crisis.
Do you understand this? Have you gotten outside the EMT world at all to see the long term effects? I have.
Therapists are trained to be very careful about hospitalizing patients with trauma histories because it’s written in textbooks that the process is traumatic and worsens symptoms - it does not help restore to health. It might keep someone alive, which is very crucial, but it’s expected they will have worse symptoms when they leave because of forced procedures and etc.
I’ve personally talked to ER nurses who do more forceful IVs and laugh at suicidal patients in crisis and forced caths on highly fubtional patients expressing they were suicidal. The medical record documents no out of control behavior just an expression of suicidal thoughts. There was no cause for the forced catherizations for the client that I talked to them about.
They did it anyhow explaining it is what they normally do. “She should have peed the in the cup when we told her to do so.”
I still have the records from those conversations.
Three years later this client refused chemo for a highly treatable cancer because they were so afraid of forced procedures being done again without consent. This patient will likely die of this cancer because they have been so traumatized they won’t access care for it. It’s totalky their choice too.
Go ahead and continue the forced catherizations.
As someone who has professionally dealt with the long term consequences of well meaning and not so well meaning EMTs pushing too quickly for forced procedures invading the gentials of clients against consent, I hope that perhaps someone here will read my perspective on the long term consequences of forced procedures and make sure it’s absolutely worth the risk and costs to the patient to do it against their consent.
And if you take that as an attack, that’s on you.
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/bjsports/early/2018/06/22/bjsports-2018-099403.full.pdf
http://www.urologytimes.com/modern-...ful-catheter-insertion-leads-bleeding-lawsuit
I find it stunning it a post Larry Nassau world that a community would be so resistant and defensive when someone suggests hey, before providers forced themselves inside someone’s geniltals, let’s make sure consent and dignity is being valued highly. Are there rare times when it can’t be obtained a procedure should be done anyhow? Yes. But there needs to be respect even in those times that’s what is being done is without consent and forced physical invasion into a body, even if it causes no harm, without consent can be extremely traumatizing. I am not even stating that forced procedures against someone’s will should never ever be done. I’m stating that it’s happening too often and with little regard for the common effect it has on people.
Many therapists are trained to be reluctant and hesitant to call for 911 help for trauma patients in a mental health crisis.
Do you understand this? Have you gotten outside the EMT world at all to see the long term effects? I have.
Therapists are trained to be very careful about hospitalizing patients with trauma histories because it’s written in textbooks that the process is traumatic and worsens symptoms - it does not help restore to health. It might keep someone alive, which is very crucial, but it’s expected they will have worse symptoms when they leave because of forced procedures and etc.
I’ve personally talked to ER nurses who do more forceful IVs and laugh at suicidal patients in crisis and forced caths on highly fubtional patients expressing they were suicidal. The medical record documents no out of control behavior just an expression of suicidal thoughts. There was no cause for the forced catherizations for the client that I talked to them about.
They did it anyhow explaining it is what they normally do. “She should have peed the in the cup when we told her to do so.”
I still have the records from those conversations.
Three years later this client refused chemo for a highly treatable cancer because they were so afraid of forced procedures being done again without consent. This patient will likely die of this cancer because they have been so traumatized they won’t access care for it. It’s totalky their choice too.
Go ahead and continue the forced catherizations.
As someone who has professionally dealt with the long term consequences of well meaning and not so well meaning EMTs pushing too quickly for forced procedures invading the gentials of clients against consent, I hope that perhaps someone here will read my perspective on the long term consequences of forced procedures and make sure it’s absolutely worth the risk and costs to the patient to do it against their consent.
And if you take that as an attack, that’s on you.
PotatoMedic
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I know my comment was rude. But at midnight I didn't really care for how you tried to accuse us of something we don't even do.
Just as an FYI. No EMT's and VERY FEW paramedics do Foley catheters or even anything that involves genitalia. You might want to go to allnurses.com and start a non-constructive dialogue there.
VFlutter
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Regardless of your opinion, or of the potential PTSD forced care may cause, an intoxicated person is not legally able to refuse care. Plain and simple. Many of us may wish we could let the patient just say no or just let the patient continue their cycle but that is not the way it works.
And although a patient with mental illness whom chooses to take their own life after a traumatic event is tragic I am sure would be much less frequent then death and disability caused by incompetent refused care.
I am glad you have records of bad nurses doing bad care. That is an issue that surely needs to be addressed, to those nurses. This does not reflect the overall profession. And not to defend those actions however as a therapist i am sure you know the rates of mental trauma, burnout, PTSD, on those healthcare providers who see these patients multiple times a day every day they work.
I have seen true PTSD in ICU patients. It is horrible and truly unfortunate. Should we have let them die instead?
And although a patient with mental illness whom chooses to take their own life after a traumatic event is tragic I am sure would be much less frequent then death and disability caused by incompetent refused care.
I am glad you have records of bad nurses doing bad care. That is an issue that surely needs to be addressed, to those nurses. This does not reflect the overall profession. And not to defend those actions however as a therapist i am sure you know the rates of mental trauma, burnout, PTSD, on those healthcare providers who see these patients multiple times a day every day they work.
I have seen true PTSD in ICU patients. It is horrible and truly unfortunate. Should we have let them die instead?
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Care to answer my questions?
Gurby
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One of my least favorite memories from EMS...
Respond for the little old lady who fell down and bumped her head, on coumadin, history of dementia. Get to the house, turns out a visiting nurse called because patient “has fallen several times today, struck head, and is acting abnormally”. Patient seems fine to me, doesn’t seem demented, no visible signs of trauma, really really doesn’t want to go to hospital. When asked if anything is bothering her, patient points at nurse and says “she is”.
Given the circumstances though we basically kidnap her, hold her hand all the way in and tell her it’s okay she’s just going to get checked out. Hand off at the hospital, and before we even leave the ED I see patient crying and being wheeled off to CT with a brand new Foley in place. I was like, well ****, I can see why she didn’t want to come in now.
Respond for the little old lady who fell down and bumped her head, on coumadin, history of dementia. Get to the house, turns out a visiting nurse called because patient “has fallen several times today, struck head, and is acting abnormally”. Patient seems fine to me, doesn’t seem demented, no visible signs of trauma, really really doesn’t want to go to hospital. When asked if anything is bothering her, patient points at nurse and says “she is”.
Given the circumstances though we basically kidnap her, hold her hand all the way in and tell her it’s okay she’s just going to get checked out. Hand off at the hospital, and before we even leave the ED I see patient crying and being wheeled off to CT with a brand new Foley in place. I was like, well ****, I can see why she didn’t want to come in now.
Ridryder911
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Time to step out the trauma bay and get a breath of fresh air... Real world... There are many so called "procedures" that are necessary to perform baseline/values to diagnose and treat. Would you not obtain lab's because the procedure is invasive and potentially cause psychological problems? Then again, did these so called patients truly meet the true diagnosis of PTSD and not the typical litigation definition of having a " bad experience or bad time" with the procedure or event?
Then in comes the attorneys IF one does not perform such tests to properly evaluate to diagnose... etc! Alike everything else it depends on the situation. Do you need a u/a for stat return? Do I have hours to wait for a UDS .. no! Want me to lolly gag to determine an etiology? If possible and if allowed I will make an attempt to get a void specimen, many times we want a cath u/a for many reasons.
Then comes the role competent. Unfortunately, just because one is able to talk, fight or even flatly refuse does not make one competent. Does the patient... really.. know all of the risks and side effects of not having the procedure performed?...yadda.... yadda.. Risks outweigh the problem?.. Which side do you think litigation is going to go? How many physicians would testify against the current standard of care and those within the medical community?
Sure there are always hungry attorneys and there are always hospital/insurance attorneys on retainer...
R/r911
Then in comes the attorneys IF one does not perform such tests to properly evaluate to diagnose... etc! Alike everything else it depends on the situation. Do you need a u/a for stat return? Do I have hours to wait for a UDS .. no! Want me to lolly gag to determine an etiology? If possible and if allowed I will make an attempt to get a void specimen, many times we want a cath u/a for many reasons.
Then comes the role competent. Unfortunately, just because one is able to talk, fight or even flatly refuse does not make one competent. Does the patient... really.. know all of the risks and side effects of not having the procedure performed?...yadda.... yadda.. Risks outweigh the problem?.. Which side do you think litigation is going to go? How many physicians would testify against the current standard of care and those within the medical community?
Sure there are always hungry attorneys and there are always hospital/insurance attorneys on retainer...
R/r911
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Survivor2222
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Yeah. That’s what they say when they force a procedure on someone with a disability because why are too tired to wait for a sign interpreter or take the time to communicate.
I will repay my position slowly for you.
I never stated forced catherizations should end.
I believe consent should matter more than it typically does and patients need to be treated with greater respect, even when you are shoving instruments in their gentials. Even when they are drunk or high or whatever. And we. Again. I used to work as an EMT. I’ve seen it all. I work with addicts who even get violent.
I will repay once again, super duper slowly for ya.
I never stated that forced catherizations and procedures should end. Force away.
That does not change this:
Consent, dignity, and respect still needs to matter more than it does.
Procedures can still be forced even if someone increases their respect for consent and the damage and costs that come when consent isn’t sought or a procedure goes against consent.
Survivor2222
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What if first responders were required to increase training in how to descalate problems and communicate with those with disabilities and addictions better?
75 percent of forced procedures that were done could have been less traumatic (and still forced on the patient) with better communication and deescalating techniques. It would have made the job easier. Most areas that increase this trading had a drop in forced procedures without a loss of solid life saving healthcare provided.
Most first responders could benefit and do their jobs better with greater training in deescalating problems. There is also the problem of first responders doing things like joke about patients in front of them. Simple things I saw happen all the time. The few (yes I stated few!) that are jerks to patients do rest damage because everyone else is silent or back them up or gets their panties in a bunch like here when someone suggests hey, we could do a better job.
There is no culture of saying “hey, that’s not ok” to someone who is an *** to the patient. I have never ever seen someone stop a colleague who wasn’t being a jerk.
This field is not immune from fault and need for improvement.
75 percent of forced procedures that were done could have been less traumatic (and still forced on the patient) with better communication and deescalating techniques. It would have made the job easier. Most areas that increase this trading had a drop in forced procedures without a loss of solid life saving healthcare provided.
Most first responders could benefit and do their jobs better with greater training in deescalating problems. There is also the problem of first responders doing things like joke about patients in front of them. Simple things I saw happen all the time. The few (yes I stated few!) that are jerks to patients do rest damage because everyone else is silent or back them up or gets their panties in a bunch like here when someone suggests hey, we could do a better job.
There is no culture of saying “hey, that’s not ok” to someone who is an *** to the patient. I have never ever seen someone stop a colleague who wasn’t being a jerk.
This field is not immune from fault and need for improvement.
Survivor2222
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Who knew stating patients deserve respect would get so much push back? Holy cow.
Consent should matter more than it typically does.
Continue to do forced procedures. I have not stated they should stop.
I have stated the value the profession as a culture places on consent and the weight given to a choice to go against it, should increase.
No one has made a solid argument against this. What, you are going to say we should respect patients less? Ignore their personal responsibility and choices more? You want to claim the profession is perfe t and does not need to improve unlike all other professions on planet earth that are working on improving their ethics?
That’s the hill you really wanna die on? Ugh.
Consent should matter more than it typically does.
Continue to do forced procedures. I have not stated they should stop.
I have stated the value the profession as a culture places on consent and the weight given to a choice to go against it, should increase.
No one has made a solid argument against this. What, you are going to say we should respect patients less? Ignore their personal responsibility and choices more? You want to claim the profession is perfe t and does not need to improve unlike all other professions on planet earth that are working on improving their ethics?
That’s the hill you really wanna die on? Ugh.
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Survivor2222
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What four abilities must a patient show to be able to have capacity to give or refuse consent?
VFlutter
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Please quote a study showing 75% of forced procedures could have been done less traumatically, how you qualify that, how this training actually reduced the number of procedures, and how you related that to medical outcomes.
You are basically saying that the majority of us need training on an important topic we deal with everyday, that we all sit back and watch unethical treatment without issue, and that the culture of the entire profession supports that since you have never seen otherwise. I wonder why anyone would be offended.
Of course this field is not immune from fault, no profession is. You think all therapist are ethical and have their patients best interest in mind?
Not to make an argument from authority, which I hate, but could you describe the educational requirements to be a trauma therapist? Are you a MSW, LCSW, BS, or some type of license therapist?
You said you briefly worked as an EMT but it does not sounds like you have the clinical experience to make some of the generalizations you have made.
. I don't know. Please educate us.
No one is arguing that.
You are the one trying to argue from your high hill of moral superiority.
It is great you are passionate about this topic but it is coming off as you venting about a personal vendetta vs actually trying to to productively inform and educate.
You are basically saying that the majority of us need training on an important topic we deal with everyday, that we all sit back and watch unethical treatment without issue, and that the culture of the entire profession supports that since you have never seen otherwise. I wonder why anyone would be offended.
Of course this field is not immune from fault, no profession is. You think all therapist are ethical and have their patients best interest in mind?
Not to make an argument from authority, which I hate, but could you describe the educational requirements to be a trauma therapist? Are you a MSW, LCSW, BS, or some type of license therapist?
You said you briefly worked as an EMT but it does not sounds like you have the clinical experience to make some of the generalizations you have made.
. I don't know. Please educate us.No one is arguing that.
You are the one trying to argue from your high hill of moral superiority.
It is great you are passionate about this topic but it is coming off as you venting about a personal vendetta vs actually trying to to productively inform and educate.
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@Survivor2222 You clearly have some ulterior motive. You are also persevering the same statements about "respect" despite the repeated attempts of members trying to explain their experience and knowledge. You have not come for a conversation but rather to come and stand on your soap box and project the opinions and bias that you come with. Posting what has been mostly news articles is anecdotal evidence at best, of which there is plenty of about abuse from mental health workers on their clients; making sweeping generalizations about an entire field of professionals wouldn't be fair or reasonable. I'll be honest, I've work alongside many LCSWs, LPCs, psychologists, and psychiatrists when in the ED and other units of the hospital; your statements don't remind me of a professional who works in the mental health field but rather of a former patient with a vendetta.
If a patient presents in an altered mental state then we need to evaluate why they are altered. If there is no clear etiology then we may need to do further testing which may include blood work, drug screens, CT/MRI imaging, et cetera. If they are unable to understand the risks and benefits of treatment, then they cannot refuse; this is regardless of if they are heavily intoxicated, high, have medical disease process, are psychotic, et cetera. As medical providers we have a responsibility to be the lease invasive as possible, but we also have a duty to the patient to provide them efficacious care in an expedient manner. I cannot go to court and tell a jury that I let a patient herniate and die because they didn't want a CT/UDS/IV despite that they were incapable of refusing, I would have failed my duty to that patient.
From an ethical/moral standpoint I don't hold a lot of sympathy for those who become highly intoxicated or high and present to the ED and need a straight cath as part of their work-up. Their decision to drink or consume drugs to the point in which they can no longer control themselves is a decision that they made, they just now have to face the consequence of it. Behavior has consequence.
I do feel bad for those with true psychosis, organic brain disease, or are altered because they have been victimized by another person. My duty to them doesn't change though, we still need to give them the same medical care. In my experience in the ED these are far less common than those who are altered because they decided to ingest substance.
If a patient presents in an altered mental state then we need to evaluate why they are altered. If there is no clear etiology then we may need to do further testing which may include blood work, drug screens, CT/MRI imaging, et cetera. If they are unable to understand the risks and benefits of treatment, then they cannot refuse; this is regardless of if they are heavily intoxicated, high, have medical disease process, are psychotic, et cetera. As medical providers we have a responsibility to be the lease invasive as possible, but we also have a duty to the patient to provide them efficacious care in an expedient manner. I cannot go to court and tell a jury that I let a patient herniate and die because they didn't want a CT/UDS/IV despite that they were incapable of refusing, I would have failed my duty to that patient.
From an ethical/moral standpoint I don't hold a lot of sympathy for those who become highly intoxicated or high and present to the ED and need a straight cath as part of their work-up. Their decision to drink or consume drugs to the point in which they can no longer control themselves is a decision that they made, they just now have to face the consequence of it. Behavior has consequence.
I do feel bad for those with true psychosis, organic brain disease, or are altered because they have been victimized by another person. My duty to them doesn't change though, we still need to give them the same medical care. In my experience in the ED these are far less common than those who are altered because they decided to ingest substance.
Ridryder911
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We can always improve, no one says differently. Should we be more empathetic? Definitely. At the same time our clients/patients etc. should also understand with the patient rights there are also patient responsibilities (which many forget). Yes, in the past few years it has been an issue to promote different ways to address those with mental illness and how to approach patients.. (as per JCH). I have witnessed too many times; patients being "bulldogged" into things and alike patients taking advantage of the situations as well.
Determining being competent is much more difficult than just asking them if they know day/time/situation/location as many feel is needed. Albeit, we do not usually have the time or be allowed to do a detail assessment to conclude. I always ask patient questions in regards in the information I shared and ask to repeat back or questions that they understand what I have informed them... and document it!
In regards to the initial post.. I ask; other than the patient with urinary retention.. "who wants to be cathed?" ... Would we raise the fuss of a burn patient, trauma, sepsis or even a patient that will be immobilized for a period of time? .. What if they refused and are totally alert? Unfortunately, most of those within the EMS arena are not taught or understand the necessityof such things of a U/A. The description of a elderly crying is sad but again; what if they had missed an UTI or dehydration causing her fall? (Which is very prominent in gero falls)
I have forced catheterized many patients due to injuries or illnesses that require a strict I/O or required a cath u/a. Personally, don't like catheterizing kids because of the fear factor but institution requires cath u/a. Sorry, clean catch or mid stream and wee-bag is not comparable.from a cath u/a..
As clinical providers we attempt to inform our patients and respect their wishes as much as allowed and possible.. but there are times that it is in the patients best interest. Although uncomfortable; and if possible to explain the need and with empathy (lido jelly) I usually can convince the patient; but there are times we I have to go in ... alike many other procedures .. ABG, NG tubes, etc... There are much more painful procedures and tests in comparision (yes, I have had to be cathed) Again, would we not place an NG tube on an OD? Again reality check; how many OD patients agree with getting an NG tube?...
R/r 911
Determining being competent is much more difficult than just asking them if they know day/time/situation/location as many feel is needed. Albeit, we do not usually have the time or be allowed to do a detail assessment to conclude. I always ask patient questions in regards in the information I shared and ask to repeat back or questions that they understand what I have informed them... and document it!
In regards to the initial post.. I ask; other than the patient with urinary retention.. "who wants to be cathed?" ... Would we raise the fuss of a burn patient, trauma, sepsis or even a patient that will be immobilized for a period of time? .. What if they refused and are totally alert? Unfortunately, most of those within the EMS arena are not taught or understand the necessityof such things of a U/A. The description of a elderly crying is sad but again; what if they had missed an UTI or dehydration causing her fall? (Which is very prominent in gero falls)
I have forced catheterized many patients due to injuries or illnesses that require a strict I/O or required a cath u/a. Personally, don't like catheterizing kids because of the fear factor but institution requires cath u/a. Sorry, clean catch or mid stream and wee-bag is not comparable.from a cath u/a..
As clinical providers we attempt to inform our patients and respect their wishes as much as allowed and possible.. but there are times that it is in the patients best interest. Although uncomfortable; and if possible to explain the need and with empathy (lido jelly) I usually can convince the patient; but there are times we I have to go in ... alike many other procedures .. ABG, NG tubes, etc... There are much more painful procedures and tests in comparision (yes, I have had to be cathed) Again, would we not place an NG tube on an OD? Again reality check; how many OD patients agree with getting an NG tube?...
R/r 911
VFlutter
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So a patient decides to use illicit narcotics. They are aware of the benefits, the legal consequences, and potential bad outcomes and choose to do so anyway. Are they are capable of understanding long term effects of those decisions. Doesn't matter I guess. When they are found overdosed we should let them die peacefully since we are respecting their informed consent to use drugs and any potential intervention would likey be traumatizing.
I agree with the others that are on here. @Survivor2222 what are your credentials? And don't say 'trauma therapist' because that is not a license or degree. Are you a Ph.D./Psy.D; LCSW; LMHC; LMFT?
Secondly, and this applies to law enforcement too; de-escalation is an easy thing to yell in protest. It is a hard thing to actually do; especially when the person is altered mental status.
Let me ask you this. Say you're family member (young kid, Alzheimer's, intellectual disability or whatever) trips through a glass furniture object and severs an artery leading to massive hemorrhage. Because of their confusion and lack of blood to the brain they keep swinging at you and saying don't touch me. What would you do:
1. Do nothing and allow them to die in front of you
2. Try to deesclate the situation and talk them into consenting; during which they bleed out
3. Realize that because of their condition they are not in their right mind and are not capable of understanding what is happening and treat them anyway saving their life
I understand you saying there needs to be more respect in healthcare and that some doctors are very authoritarian/paternalistic and don't explain things to patients (which does lead to bad outcomes)
HOWEVER, conflating criminal behavior like Larry Nasser with real medical procedures doesn't help your case and makes you seem extremist in your views
Secondly, and this applies to law enforcement too; de-escalation is an easy thing to yell in protest. It is a hard thing to actually do; especially when the person is altered mental status.
Let me ask you this. Say you're family member (young kid, Alzheimer's, intellectual disability or whatever) trips through a glass furniture object and severs an artery leading to massive hemorrhage. Because of their confusion and lack of blood to the brain they keep swinging at you and saying don't touch me. What would you do:
1. Do nothing and allow them to die in front of you
2. Try to deesclate the situation and talk them into consenting; during which they bleed out
3. Realize that because of their condition they are not in their right mind and are not capable of understanding what is happening and treat them anyway saving their life
I understand you saying there needs to be more respect in healthcare and that some doctors are very authoritarian/paternalistic and don't explain things to patients (which does lead to bad outcomes)
HOWEVER, conflating criminal behavior like Larry Nasser with real medical procedures doesn't help your case and makes you seem extremist in your views
- Status