Faith / Is there a place for God in EMS?

[BossyCow]

Okay. Ill bite. I can't help myself. This a question of curiosity. How was God in the ambulance with you? In what way? Any answer you give is correct...or incorrect by my beliefs. So just remove any argumentiveness you may take from my asking.

LOL.. well, since I'm not christian or affiliated with any form of organized religion, I think I can do the argumentative removal without issue.

I believe that the belief/faith or whatever term you want to give it, of the pastor made a difference. I saw patient's stabilize, red lights turn green (they don't let us volly's have opticons) and because of the pastor, this indentified by me as a presence of his god in the rig.

 

[Ridryder911]

That is about the most arrogant statement i have ever heard, "Don't argue with me" the only one that ever got away with that statement was my loving Mother.

I'll just sum up where you are obviously coming from, "I'll just consider the source"
furthermore, the basics of CISD are to talk it out, not bottle up what one might not fully understand, and if you think that doesn't work, ,,,

Why i will pray for you.

Sorry, but you want to ignore proven medical and scientific facts. You want to debate an anecdotal feeling over proven facts, then I suggest to do so against those that studied CISD systems for years and on thousands of people. They did not come up with this idea overnight. Like anything in medicine, all treatments should be evidence based. Which means, it should be studied prior to being placed to real people, events and patients. This is why it is no longer recommended, it has been proven not to be effective for the reason it was established and again, potentially harmful. Would you endorse a medication with the same outcome?

For our system (EMS) to continue to endorse such programs that has been proven to be harmful is dangerous and shameful, especially to members of our own profession.

Post traumatic stress may not be immediately seen for years or even decades, again CISD has not been shown to do any good to prevent such occurrences. As well, it has been shown to possibly to cause harm by not having real professionals interviewing and as well by placing "false beliefs" that it actually did good at the time.

Having professional licensed mental health counselors that are properly educated and trained in such speciality should be the goal of EMS providers. Not all people need " to vent" and open up, and in some can cause more problems, as well some need intense therapy to deal with the inner personal psyche of the event. CISD teams need to be composed of professionals educated and licensed in mental health, rather than some non-mental health care workers attending a few session in debriefing techniques. There is reason why it is no longer endorsed or recommended by disaster relief and rescue organizations world wide.

I highly recommend to read current literature and the reasons of why such continuation and practices are no longer recommended before having an attitude of non-compliance of changes.

Like in medicine, treatments change continuously and sometimes are a myth to begin with, in similarly as many still believe in the urban myth of the ..."Golden Hour"...and MAST trousers which never was proven as well.

All though proven never to work, both are hard to eliminate in the mind sets of most EMT's that refuse to adapt changes in medicine.

You may not like me, or what I write, I don't care. I don't post to be liked. Rather what I attempt to do is to educate and remove myths, ignorance (not knowing) then direct to proven and factual medical care, than anecdotal beliefs that may not be in the best interest of patient's or the EMS System.
Many EMT's do not keep up on current medical care. We are a division of medicine, which is science and therefore our treatments and procedures should be based upon that.

p.s. thanks for the prayers.. I can always use those

R/r 911

 

[firetender]

The art of being a medic, IMHO, centers around being completely in the moment that is, and working with everything at your disposal. We all have found ourselves in critical situations where we didn't have what we thought we needed and then, somehow, using what was there, we got through the call.

A huge tool to work with is the person's relationship with their higher power. It can and does take as many forms as there are people. I don't have to believe as they do to use it as a tool of healing any more than I need to inject myself with Inderal before I can use it on a patient.

Clinically, it is a calming influence that affects all the vital signs, technically it can take the heat off you as their savior by placing things in proper perspective.

How?

I ask every one of you, including Atheist medics, can you relate to this?

"We're all working together now; me, you and anything you believe in that will bring you back to health."

If you're working with the person that is in front of you -- and in areas of religion we all know that resistance to a belief system gets you no where -- there are many ways to connect around their personal belief in a God or Gods or Goddesses, and to mobilize that in their defense. It's all about focusing their attention.

Resistance is probably the key thing to avoid. Even within yourself.

If a patient brings God into the back of your ambulance, then use Him!
(Her, What- or Whomever!)

 

[BossyCow]

Absolutely firetender, I don't care if the patient calls it God, Goddess, Luck, Coincidence, Fate, Higher Power, Delusion.... if it's a power that is going help, I'll welcome it on my call anytime.

 

[firetender]

RID SAID:
"Having professional licensed mental health counselors that are properly educated and trained in such speciality should be the goal of EMS providers. Not all people need " to vent" and open up, and in some can cause more problems, as well some need intense therapy to deal with the inner personal psyche of the event. CISD teams need to be composed of professionals educated and licensed in mental health, rather than some non-mental health care workers attending a few session in debriefing techniques. There is reason why it is no longer endorsed or recommended by disaster relief and rescue organizations world wide. "


In matters of dealing with the trauma, past, present, or post that comes from being a medic, the person who I can sit down and honestly "talk shop" with is the person that is most qualified to help me see things I couldn't see before.

I think we need to take personal responsibility for our own because few clinically trained counseling professionals have walked a mile in our mocassins. The failure is in the system because it places more importance on clinical broad-strokes than connection with the individual in the moment. In the process, it puts the power into the hands of a machine and leads us to the illusion that we have to go into someone else's paradigm to get help. That's BS!

I believe that we can develop a peer-counseling model that can be taught and shared with each other. The most important part of this is to develop a sacred space of safety where we can just simply start talking with each other of matters deeper than our typical surface concerns.

It is that simple!

The model can have built-in release valves that can syphon off those more seriously affected into more professional counseling. Wiithin that context we can also establish a specialty within the profession that develops facilitators who then can build careers counseling other medics in crisis.

 

[Ridryder911]

Part of the problem was that CISD attempted to do what you described. Placing non-mental health care workers to treat mental health issues. Again one does not have to "go through" or deal with the daily operations of EMS to have an objective and understanding insight what the job entitles to give professional counseling. In fact, objectiveness may be better obtained from those that do not deal with it on a daily basis.

There is nothing wrong with debriefing and "talking" about calls. That is different than performing and describing mental health care. There is a problem to present such as professional therapy and possibly prevention of PTSD and making claims and giving an impression, when in fact it is a myth. Can we really trust someone with a persons psyche and emotional well being, that only attended a couple seminar sessions? Sorry, mental health is more in depth and important than that, so is our personal.

Do we really think an EMT or EMS personal is educated enough in mental health to really assess and recognize such mental problems? We cannot get even get EMT's to take an anatomy class, do you perceive them receiving years of education in this speciality. Mental health is much more difficult, than providing physical assessment and treatments. That is why it should be dealt with by licensed professionals.

This is really a mute point. Many may continue to disagree with the results and findings, so be it, one cannot change the facts.

In the future, one will see less and less CISD, rather trained licensed professional counselors that are able provide medical care to our fellow workers. There is much interest in rescuers problems and research on how to improve and handling the issues. The funding and promotion of CISD is gone for a reason.

Back to the original posts, you are there for the patient not vice versa. If one wants personal faith, within them so be it and personally good for myself. Not recognizing the patients need of faith is negligent of the patients emotional well being, and those with medical education recognizes the importance of that as well. Again, this has been evidence proven and scientifically studied in detail. It is part of patient care.

R/r 911

 

[Jay114]

A huge tool to work with is the person's relationship with their higher power. It can and does take as many forms as there are people. I don't have to believe as they do to use it as a tool of healing any more than I need to inject myself with Inderal before I can use it on a patient.

I was going to weigh in on this topic, but this struck me as a better way to say what I was thinking. Well said firetender!

 

[Gbro]

Rid said;
"For our system (EMS) to continue to endorse such programs that has been proven to be harmful is dangerous and shameful, especially to members of our own profession."

So now let me get this right, (this is hypothetical)
Spike was on a MVA (wrong way on a 4 lane) and 5 of 6 members of a family are killed, as is the driver of the vehicle going the wrong way. He isn't sleeping well, no appetite, and several members of the crew state Spike isn't himself. We notice that that whole shift is having issues, late coming in, snapping at each other,

Well sorry guys, you all have to go see a shrink. Its the recommended way to deal with stress these days,
ya well i know its a bum deal,---- ya, you will have to give up your guns, no more hunting for you,--Why?---- cause the know-it-alls in mental health state we will harm you if we attempt to debrief you.
Hey don't look at me all I'm doing is listening to all those that know everything.

Well guess what, I will argue with you.
Lets remember who and what is at stake here.
We have had whole First responder groups involved in Stress Debriefing and have had wonderful results. And that is a fact.
I myself haven't been on the receiving side, as i never acknowledged being shook after a very nasty call, was i shook. yes. but my philosophy is,

Bad things "Happen" and we will get our share, Its just a matter of time until its our turn again.

 

[BossyCow]

So now let me get this right, (this is hypothetical)
Spike was on a MVA (wrong way on a 4 lane) and 5 of 6 members of a family are killed, as is the driver of the vehicle going the wrong way. He isn't sleeping well, no appetite, and several members of the crew state Spike isn't himself. We notice that that whole shift is having issues, late coming in, snapping at each other,

Well sorry guys, you all have to go see a shrink. Its the recommended way to deal with stress these days,
ya well i know its a bum deal,---- ya, you will have to give up your guns, no more hunting for you,--Why?---- cause the know-it-alls in mental health state we will harm you if we attempt to debrief you.
Hey don't look at me all I'm doing is listening to all those that know everything.

I don't think anyone is saying that here. What rid is posting is a critique of the current system. And he is correct. There are some serious flaws that have developed after the CISD, including those who had no issued prior to the group meeting developing them. Mental illness can be fatal. And many of those who suffer from it take others with them. I'm thinking this is something that is best left to professionals.

That said, this doesn't mean that as a group, trained as we are in the signs and symptoms of stress, that we can't help. No one is saying that being a friend to a co-worker after a tough call isn't valuable. What is being said is the formal debriefing isn't working and there are those who are so deeply impacted by a call that professional help is needed. CISD doesn't often identify those people and may in fact harm the others. Instead of jumping to the opposite extreme and polarizing the subject, why don't you read the links Rid posted or search yourself about some of the controversy surrounding CISD as it currently is being implemented.

 

[Ridryder911]

Rid said;
"For our system (EMS) to continue to endorse such programs that has been proven to be harmful is dangerous and shameful, especially to members of our own profession."

So now let me get this right, (this is hypothetical)
Spike was on a MVA (wrong way on a 4 lane) and 5 of 6 members of a family are killed, as is the driver of the vehicle going the wrong way. He isn't sleeping well, no appetite, and several members of the crew state Spike isn't himself. We notice that that whole shift is having issues, late coming in, snapping at each other,

Well sorry guys, you all have to go see a shrink. Its the recommended way to deal with stress these days,
ya well i know its a bum deal,---- ya, you will have to give up your guns, no more hunting for you,--Why?---- cause the know-it-alls in mental health state we will harm you if we attempt to debrief you.
Hey don't look at me all I'm doing is listening to all those that know everything.

Well guess what, I will argue with you.
Lets remember who and what is at stake here.
We have had whole First responder groups involved in Stress Debriefing and have had wonderful results. And that is a fact.
I myself haven't been on the receiving side, as i never acknowledged being shook after a very nasty call, was i shook. yes. but my philosophy is,

Bad things "Happen" and we will get our share, Its just a matter of time until its our turn again.

So let's say Spike has all those "symptoms" and what medication and therapy is your little CISD going to do? Are they going to assume responsibility of Spike, if he goes home and blows his brains out?


Just because Johnny Rescuer took an 40 hr class on crisis intervention, now they think they are a mental health professional which requires several years of education and clinical exposures to be detect symptoms that may not be obvious. Maybe, Spike does not want to "talk out loud" to other peers, or especially to his buddies. Which occurs a lot in depression and PTSD.

That is part of the problem, EMS assumes we know what PTSD looks like and what events they occur from as well how to intervene. This is a major myth and even the military is heavily exploring these problems and they deal with much more than we do.

For locking up his weapons... well, yes if you really care for him. Since he is displaying symptoms of depression, and that is an illness, just like a physical illness they need to seek a physician.

R/r 911

 

[firetender]

I'm gonna start a new thread that covers some of the more recent stuff so everyone here can get back to God.

 

[firecoins]

A huge tool to work with is the person's relationship with their higher power. It can and does take as many forms as there are people. I don't have to believe as they do to use it as a tool of healing any more than I need to inject myself with Inderal before I can use it on a patient.

Clinically, it is a calming influence that affects all the vital signs, technically it can take the heat off you as their savior by placing things in proper perspective.

How?

I ask every one of you, including Atheist medics, can you relate to this?

Ahh the calming power of belief. If patient believes in God, using their religious beliefs to calm them is important. It doesn't prove any one God exists. If they believed in the flying spagetti monster, I would use that. With children, the calming experience may come from their parents being present or having a certain favorite toy. You use whatever works. Calming a patient is important. Believing its God? Thats another question all together.

 

[Rattletrap]

Yesterday I rolled up on a code being worked by 2 other trucks from the company I work for. Even though when I saw the Pt and knew that it was hopeless. I saw people who were not the most religious ppl on earth, who were working that code, speaking to God in their own way.

Reason - PT was 1 month old

If you are not praying your arse off in that situation then there is something wrong with you. Yes you have to stay focused but prayer can keep you focused and not clutter your mind.

 

[firecoins]

If you are not praying your arse off in that situation then there is something wrong with you. Yes you have to stay focused but prayer can keep you focused and not clutter your mind.

Yes a 1 month old in a code is very bad. It would make me feel terrible. I certainly would be hoping for this baby to recover reguardless of how unlikely I knew that recover might be. I don't think my lack of prayer would make me lose focus or that something was wrong with me. While I lack a belief in God, I would probably be in a similiar state of mind as everyone described. I just wouldn't be "praying" per se. I think we just differing on semantics here.

 

[wolfwyndd]

<snippage for brevity> I wear a bracelet that says "GODSTRONG". It has a particular verse from the bible that reminds me how I am to act while I am on this planet.

Long rebuttal short, if someone notices my bracelet, and ASKS me to pray with them, or tell them about Jesus, I will. If my doing so gives someone else hope, no matter what situation they are in, I feel obligated by my relationship with my God to do so.

Just out of curiousity, how and / or what would you do if someone noticed your bracelet and said they were offended by it and / or mentioned lodging a complaint against you based on your bracelet and they thought that just by wearing it you were prostelytizing or showing a preference for a particular religious belief? IE, in the patient's opinion, you are offending them?

 

[emtwannabe]

Fine with me.....I have had NO complaints so far....as a matter of fact, I have had people inquire as to how they can get a bracelet like mine.

If you want to wear your pentagram as a wiccan, Go for it. It offends me, just like a cross offends someone of Muslim descent. But I will NOT try to push MY OWN personal beliefs on anyone. I respect people of different races, creeds, colors, religious preferences and backgrounds.

Having a bracelet or a religious medallion or a symbol of whatever faith is guaranteed in the Bill of Rights, so your argument is a moot point.

And, for what it is worth, I am descended from one of the "Salem 16"....I have intimate knowledge of Wicca and their belief systems, as I went through a very difficult time in my life trying to define where my religious preferences lie.

PM me if you want to discuss this further, Ok?

 

[firetender]

I'm granted the right to express myself openly by the constitution, within limits. Any form of jewelry or the like that I display that identifies me as of one orientation or another is most likely going to be noticed by someone who is of similar orientation. In that case, just like anything, it can be a tool useful in connection, as long as the patient initiates going there. Connection is the gateway to healing.

If any part of my belief system can be solace to someone that I'm working with, then it's going to be in my toolbox. But the use of it is very situation dependent, and all based on agreement.

 

[Kendall]

I'm granted the right to express myself openly by the constitution, within limits. Any form of jewelry or the like that I display that identifies me as of one orientation or another is most likely going to be noticed by someone who is of similar orientation. In that case, just like anything, it can be a tool useful in connection, as long as the patient initiates going there. Connection is the gateway to healing.

If any part of my belief system can be solace to someone that I'm working with, then it's going to be in my toolbox. But the use of it is very situation dependent, and all based on agreement.

I will NOT try to push MY OWN personal beliefs on anyone. I respect people of different races, creeds, colors, religious preferences and backgrounds.

Thank you! That sums up my opinion exactly.

 

[BossyCow]

just like a cross offends someone of Muslim descent.

Huh? First.. Muslim is a belief system not genetics or ethnicity. You can have members of the Muslim faith in your family history and not be Muslim... so the term.. 'of Muslim descent' is inaccurate and offensive on many levels.

After I correct the semantics of your comment and assume that you meant to say that those who follow the tenents of Islam are offended by those who wear a cross, you are also way off base. The majority of mainstream practicioners of Islam are not offended when those of other belief systems wear symbols of their beliefs. It is only the most fundamentalist of all beliefs that find the evidence of other beliefs offensive.

 

[lcope]

Faith and EMS

The “Religion and the Star of Life” thread got me thinking about my faith in Jesus. I am still an EMT-B student, but I’m sure there will be times that I will need to draw on my faith once I start working in EMS.

So here is my question: Are any other Christians out there that would like to share how their faith in Christ got them through a difficult experience at work?

Please note that the purpose of this thread is not to debate the existence of God or promote one religion over another. It is simply meant to be a place where stories can be shared.