EMTs & Speeding

[ffemt8978]

But tell me, how would I be directed to pull over while I'm driving code-3? Thats what confuses me and makes the whole thing seem ridiculous. Short of the officer pulling up next to my window, getting my attention, and motioning me to pull over, I don't see how it can be done. And doing that would be extremely dangerous, which is why I say an officer would be foolish to try to pull over another emergency vehicle. Not to mention that it would stop that vehicle from responding to whatever it was responding to, which is another legal mess. If the officer wanted to follow and lecture/ticket/whatever the driver later, I can see that being a possibility.



No and in fact, its my legal responsibilty to drive with due regard for safey, both mine and the public's, and I take that responsibility seriously. Perhaps I misunderstood the context, but I do not consider minor speeding and other such violations "endangering the public".

You might want to check your local state laws about yielding to emergency vehicles. Most of the ones I'm aware of do NOT have any provisions for an emergency vehicle not having to yield to law enforcement. Most do have charges like eluding and such that you could be arrested for once you stop.

What would you do if you were driving code 3, and see a LEO catching up to you also driving code 3? Would you pull over and let him pass, or would you continue your response?

If you would continue your response, then you shouldn't be driving an ambulance. You can't outrun a LEO in an ambulance, and letting him get there to secure the scene is a safer option for all involved. Let's say you pulled over to let him by, and then he pulls over behind you to issue you a ticket for your driving. Would you take off before he could write the ticket? If so, you will probably be spending some time in the local sheriff's bed and breakfast.

 

[VentMedic]

And then of course we have the very few really bad apples that give EMTs and Paramedics a black eye and another reason LEOs can not be too lax even with an ambulance.

http://www.kcci.com/news/13894103/detail.html

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=5940

On-Duty Iowa EMT Charged with Public Intoxication

Story by kcci.com
Updated: August 15th, 2007 11:22 AM PDT
DES MOINES, Iowa --

An EMT and ambulance driver was arrested on charges of public intoxication and speeding.

Paul Engman, 34, was supposed to be working over the weekend instead, but he ended up at the Polk County Jail.

Police said it happened early Sunday morning at Prairie Meadows.

An employee said he thought something was wrong with the driver of a Midwest ambulance.

more at:
http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=5940

 

[firecoins]

And then of course we have the very few really bad apples that give EMTs and Paramedics a black eye and another reason LEOs can not be too lax even with an ambulance.

http://www.kcci.com/news/13894103/detail.html

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=5940

On-Duty Iowa EMT Charged with Public Intoxication

Story by kcci.com
Updated: August 15th, 2007 11:22 AM PDT
DES MOINES, Iowa --

An EMT and ambulance driver was arrested on charges of public intoxication and speeding.

Paul Engman, 34, was supposed to be working over the weekend instead, but he ended up at the Polk County Jail.

Police said it happened early Sunday morning at Prairie Meadows.

An employee said he thought something was wrong with the driver of a Midwest ambulance.

more at:
http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=5940

ughhh!:glare:

 

[jmaccauley]

No, he doesn't get a pass.

 

[EMT007]

You might want to check your local state laws about yielding to emergency vehicles. Most of the ones I'm aware of do NOT have any provisions for an emergency vehicle not having to yield to law enforcement. Most do have charges like eluding and such that you could be arrested for once you stop.

... On the other hand, there are no provisions that an emergency vehicle must yield specifically to law enforcement. I'm a little surprised that my posts are being taken as saying that I have no respect for law enforcement or think that I (or any other driver of emergency vehicles) should have some golden pass to drive unsafely. I don't in any way think these things. However, I do not believe that law enforcement should be pulling over an ambulance that is operating with lights and sirens.

What would you do if you were driving code 3, and see a LEO catching up to you also driving code 3? Would you pull over and let him pass, or would you continue your response?

If an LEO approached as a speed higher than my own, I would probably slow and pull to the left to let him pass when it was safe to do so, but I would continue my response. If he pulled behind me as I came to a stop, I would probably see what he needed to tell me, and if it were something like a simple traffic ticket, I'm not sure what I would do. Probably inform him that he is causing me to abandon the patient that I was responding to and that he is assuming liability for that. Like I said, LEOs should know this and not do such a thing.

Perhaps I have a skewed view of this since I work out of a police department (technically, the ambulance I drive is a police vehicle - has the department badge on the doors and everything), and I know all the officers in the area well. I have had the pollice come up behind me code-3 many times and its always to follow us to calls for extra hands, etc. If its a call where we need them to clear the scene first, we pull off and stage elsewhere anyway.

Anyway, I dont' want this to turn into a big thing - only to explain my thoughts.

 

[jmaccauley]

I noticed that your attitude has changed considerably during this exchange. You started out by assuming that the police had no right to pull you over regardless of your driving in a dangerous manner, to saying that you didn't see how they could physically stop you anyway, to stating that it is wrong to get stopped for driving slightly above the speed limit. Now you recognize that it rarely happens and that you actually do have an obligation to stop if ordered (not asked) to pull over. You are correct in saying that police officers will not generally want to prevent you from saving lives or otherwise doing your job, so indeed, this has gotten off track. Now, ask the cops that you work with what they would do if they thought an ambulance was driving in an unsafe manner and felt that they were being careless, or worse, reckless. If you don't get what I'm trying to tell you as an answer, you are either working in a small community where your response is usually limited to a few miles of suburban roadways or, they would give you a pass because they know you.

 

[sandboxmedic]

getting pulled over in a unit

I thought maybe this has happened to you, since you have a problem with it. I guess that was just a hypothetical complaint.

O.K., I'll ask the group. How often do police pull over ambulances? Has anyone here been stopped while driving code to a call or enroute to the hospital? I'm asking as a legitimate question, not to challenge anyone. Is the problem work related or off duty?

It is my understanding that Jmamcaulay is a LEO,correct? think i read that somewhere.....anyway. I do know of a case where a unit was responding to a Code L/S. Cant recall the exact speed, maybe 55/45 thin traffic. A police unit jumped in behind, followed the unit to the call and gave them a bit of flack for speeding as they were hualin a$$ and gear into the house. The LEO watched them work the code, even followed them to the hospital then stroked the driver a ticket for speeding. A verbal should have been enough, but to actually stroke the ticket i thought was unnecessary. Funny how when responding to an "officer down" i know of a couple units going well over the speed limit, supervisors included and nothing was said. I think its selective, usually a newbie LEO from what ive seen. Dont get me wrong, reckless driving doesnt help the crew, the patient, or the public, but a little mutual understanding could be reached. If its a constant problem with a crewmember, then yes, adress it immediately. Ive had the ambulance stop on a few occaisons to switch out a driver who i felt was being a little reckless enroute to the hospital. Thankfully, the ticket went to heads of both depts. and was resolved.

 

[jmaccauley]

Frankly, at an "officer down" call, the unit would probably stage, but thats beside the point. As I have said, I won't defend a cop who is out of line, but I would guess that there was a personal aspect to that case.

 

[VentMedic]

Drive with due regard and respect for other traffic. I would say that there was a delay in response to the potential patient waiting for this ambulance.

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6026
Ambulance Collision with Tow Truck Injures 2 FDNY EMTs

JOHN ANNESE
Staten Island Advance (New York)

A tow truck slammed into an FDNY ambulance driving the wrong way down a West Brighton street yesterday afternoon, flipping the vehicle over.

Two emergency medical technicians, one male, one female, suffered minor injuries in the crash, according to authorities. The ambulance was not carrying a patient.

Witnesses said the ambulance was going the wrong way on Delafield Avenue when it crossed the intersection of Broadway at about 5 p.m. - into the path of a tow truck driven by South Beach resident Joe Sawler, 22.

"I braked. There was nowhere I could go. It was an ambulance. It was about the size of the intersection," Sawler said. He said his arm felt sore following the crash.

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6026

 

[emt666]

I am a emt(captain) with a small department the local law enforcment has told me that they will not issue a speeding ticket to any emt/firepersonal unless they cause an accident i feel that just because we are an emt/firepersonal that is no excuse to break the traffic laws

Do you think that LEOs will give more leniency upon realizing that the person they just bagged for doing 75 in a 65 is an EMT, versus that of somebody otherwise?


Another student and I were talking about this in EMT class. (He wants to be a state cop)



What are your thoughts about this concept of "professional courtesy" ?


Is it ethical, or subtly appropriate?
(Since EMTs and LEOs are in the same profession of public service)

 

[PArescueEMT]

if i was responding to a call and was pulled over, i would yield and advise the PSAP of the current situation and have a 2nd ambulance dispatched.

If i was TRANSPORTING, i would continue to the hospital and handle the situation once i transferred patient care.

If they want you bad enough, the will follow you to the hospital and handle it there.

 

[mfrjason]

In some states it does exist.

 

[medicp94dao]

Okay, As i former LEO. I did grant a courtesy to others in the public safety field. But, as soon as they said "But I am a EMT,Firefighter,etc,," or if they were repeat offenders i made D*mn sure they got a ticket and also let their supervisor know about it. On the other hand if they truly were sorry and apologetic, I let them go with a warning. We all shared the same radio freqs. so they could not pull the "i am on my way to a call" because i already knew. Its one thing to make a mistake, but its another to blatently speed or violate laws just because you are in a big truck/ambulance or are a volly w/lights on your POV. If we feel that just because we are emt/firefighters or whatever its okay to bend the rules, that is wrong on so many levels...

 

[emtvestsquad1]

indiana state police will most definetly pull you over and ticket you.... even in your ambulance... ive seen it..... definetly couldnt believe it .....

 

[jmaccauley]

indiana state police will most definetly pull you over and ticket you.... even in your ambulance... ive seen it..... definetly couldnt believe it .....

The rare instances where you might see something doesn't necessarily mean it is an agency wide practice. As I have said, and some may agree with, individuals are usually responsible for their own behavior. They are also usually responsible for the results of that behavior, especially if it involves attempting to justify violating the law. Common sense is not exclusive to the emergency medical profession, nor is it absent from law enforcement.

 

[VentMedic]

Here's couple more news stories on the EMS wire. Luckily there were very few injuries involved. Now before one thinks the newspapers are picking on EMS workers, these stories were on EMS sites picked up by their search engines. The stories may have been published in small town papers where just about anything will make headlines. I would hope no one would criticize law enforcement here for doing their job by either stopping an ambulance or issuing a ticket. If a police officer believes there is justification to pull a truck over, then the driver of that truck should obey the officer. With your adrenaline flowing you may not perceive your driving as reckless or you may not have noticed a stop light or stop sign. The officer will probably not detain you any longer than it takes to say "Be careful". Even though the patient is in the back of your truck, the police still have a responsibility for that patient's safety when it comes to moving violations.

http://www.ems1.com/products/vehicles/articles/312959/

Calif. ambulance driver partly at fault for home crash, police say
By Rachel Raskin-Zrihen
Vallejo Times Herald
Copyright 2007 The Vallejo Times Herald

VALLEJO, Calif. — Police have determined that a Medic Ambulance driver was partly at fault for a crash that hurled the emergency vehicle into a Vallejo house last month, a Vallejo Police Department spokesman said Monday.

Lt. Rick Nichelman said an investigation into the accident found EMT Owen Goodrum of Vallejo, 22, who was behind the wheel of the ambulance, "was traveling at a speed excessive for the conditions."

Goodrum, who was going about 50 mph, also erred by passing improperly, Nichelman indicated.

The speed limit is 30 mph on Redwood Street where the accident happened, a Vallejo traffic officer said.

The 8:30 a.m. Sept. 13 crash happened when a 2003 silver Chevy Tahoe stopped to make a left turn at De Anza Drive with the ambulance directly behind it, lights flashing and siren blaring. The emergency vehicle clipped the Tahoe and then slammed into a home's garage.
http://www.ems1.com/products/vehicles/articles/312959/

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6319

West Virginia Ambulance Driver Faces DUI
The Associated Press

ASHLAND, Ky. --

A West Virginia ambulance driver faces an impaired driving charge after running two red lights with a patient in the back, police said.

Steven Ray Marcum of Mingo County, W.Va., was transporting a patient Tuesday for Jan Care Ambulance, a regional service, when he ran the lights, said police Capt. Todd Kelley.

The lights and sirens of the ambulance weren't on, tipping police officer Bill Lucas that something was wrong, Kelley said.

"With this guy, it was obvious," Kelley said.

Marcum failed a field sobriety test and was blood-tested for drugs before going to jail on a charge of driving under the influence of a controlled substance, Kelley said.

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6319

 

[Ridryder911]

Marcum failed a field sobriety test and was blood-tested for drugs before going to jail on a charge of driving under the influence of a controlled substance, Kelley said.

[/url]

Yep, professionalism at its best.. and we wonder why they still call us ambulance drivers?

R/r 911

 

[rescuepoppy]

EMTs&speedig

I just want to say as avolunteer who responds mostly pov I have found that in my area le will allow a little leeway while responding. This also takes into account overall driving,reckless or aggressive driving is a sure way to get nailed even if responding. In day to day driving I have gotten away with speeding a few times due to i.d. on my vehicle. This is not expected but is welcomed. I think we should always think of what we see when we are driving.