EMS vs. FD?

[busmonkey]

Hello everyone, my first post here! Hope I will be able to make a good contribution to a wonderful community. My question is in regards to EMS vs. FD, and no I am not thinking about leaving my EMS department.


Ahh, yes the famous rivalry. My question is, I have been an EMR for three years now. I am in a relatively small town where the first responder program is in effect, and often FD is on scene first. Generally, on scene we work together fine, and usually we have no trouble on scene, but I find at the debrief, in the bus (on the way back from transport to hospital) or even just kicking around back at the station, there are always jokes made and criticisms found. Usually they are relatively "nice" jokes, but often I find that the other EMS Staff start criticizing there work out on the call. "Oh they were shaky on that C-Spine", "Engine 4 sucks at bagging". Now I have never felt this rivalry, and I believe that we are both essential services. So in short, I ask you, why is this rivalry here? Furthermore, do you feel it is as strong in your department as it might be in mine?

Thanks
JB

 

[SanDiegoEmt7]

 

[busmonkey]

Why do you say so? I am just curious as to what peoples opinions are. I couldn't find any other threads to the sort.



JB

 

[mcdonl]

Never seen the riff....

So in short, I ask you, why is this rivalry here? Furthermore, do you feel it is as strong in your department as it might be in mine?JB

I am a newbie... 2 weeks from IPE and 4 weeks from Firefighter school being done.

We have none of this on our department. Some guys love EMS (ME!!), Some guys love fire but when the call comes in, we all respond in whatever capacity our town needs us.

 

[busmonkey]

I am a newbie... 2 weeks from IPE and 4 weeks from Firefighter school being done.

We have none of this on our department. Some guys love EMS (ME!!), Some guys love fire but when the call comes in, we all respond in whatever capacity our town needs us.

Yeah like I said, we all work together well on the call. But after the call... You know. It makes me curious what the local FDs are saying about us.

 

[mcdonl]

Yeah like I said, we all work together well on the call. But after the call... You know. It makes me curious what the local FDs are saying about us.

Ah, got it. In our town, and every other one in our state as far as I know... EMS and FD are the same organization. It was not always this way, but a FD cannot stand on it's own in most communities without EMS... there would be no revenue.

 

[busmonkey]

Ah, got it. In our town, and every other one in our state as far as I know... EMS and FD are the same organization. It was not always this way, but a FD cannot stand on it's own in most communities without EMS... there would be no revenue.

Ahh, see that's probably where the confusion comes in. I should have clarified. In British Columbia (Yeah I am a Canadian Eh) There is British Columbia Ambulance Service, and then the FD is a separate organization, and is 100% municipal while we are provincial and reside over the whole province.

 

[firecoins]

This topic has been talked about adnauseum. Thats why the picture of the dead horse.

Ususally FD and people whom aspire to be are interested in putting out fires. And as such have little to interest in EMS. They are usually required to be responders because medical emergencies out number fires by a large percentage. Hence it helps justify spending tax payer money to keep such high level of readiness for fires.

 

[46Young]

Rivalries exist for all sorts of reasons.

In NYC, FDNY generally looks down upon FDNY EMS, but get along great with hospital based 911. The culture is that those "animals and degenerates" bring a poor image to the FDNY since they'rev wearing the same patch. FDNY EMS members were happy pre merger, and have had to suffer with low pay and horrendous working conditions since then.

http://fdnyemswebsite.com/

In quite a few areas the older FF's resent having to be MFR's, since it wasn't the case originally, and it takes away from their downtime.

Many single role medics are infuriated that a FF can also be a paramedic at the same time, almost like their chosen career is but a mere add-on, and that the FFM will usually have better benefits, working conditions, and pay.

Actually, in most cases the FD will have a better work environment, pay, benefits, career advancement, etc when compared to EMS. The resentment is understandable.

Some FF's look at EMS workers as "you couldn't hack it as a FF, so you just do EMS so you can play 911."

EMS workers can resent FF's since the FF's can have significantly lower call volume and lots of downtime.

These are some of the reasons that I can think of. I'm not looking to start any arguments; I'm just repeating what I've seen and heard over the years.

Edit: I forgot the biggest one of all, FD's taking over EMS in it's entirety from privates and third services, putting many out of work. The threat of losing my job would anger me, for sure.

 

[busmonkey]

That is certainly an interesting take on the whole situation. I never really looked at it that way. As a (Part-Time) volunteer pay isn't a big deal for me. I also hold another job and get paid $1.00 an hour to have my pager on. After a page goes out I get paid $30.00/hour until call end. This is for a part-time (techincally) volunteer EMR, and obviously as training goes up, so does pay. The unfortunate thing in regards to this rivalry is that, from what I have seen it has reason to be there.

The low pay for EMS, while we clearly have more call time than FFs is outrages, and then as 46Young stated so wonderfully, there is the threat of job loss. Here in Canada we have also been facing a Union Strike due to the low wages and it has unfortuently put recuritment on hold and any training that would require car time.

One thing I am ever so greatful for is that we (in the British Columbia Ambulance Service) do not face terrible work conditions and, at least where I work, have a half-decent station. Mind you, it is not like I am spending any great amount of time in the station, nor do I want to (at this point in time).

In regards to the "Beating a Dead Horse" comments, in sense, I suppose we are talking about an issue that keeps coming up, however no one has ever presented any sort of solution. I suppose that there may not be a solution and I do understand that the issue has been talked about for a long time now, but we are two essential services that require each others support. We can't run into a burning building and pull a patient out and the FD can't perform an endotrachial intubation following the rescue of that victim. Essentially it comes down to a point (in my mind) where we have no choice but to get along. The FD is an asset to EMS and vice versa. Any other opinions on this?

 

[EMTinNEPA]

In my eyes, fire suppression and, to an extent, rescue are the roles of the Fire Department.

Patient care, on the other hand, is purely the role of EMS.

In my eyes, there should be no Fire-Based EMS. EMS should be solely the role of municipal third services, private services, and my personal favorite hospital-based services. EMS is medicine, pure and simple.

I respect firefighters greatly for what they do. However, it's when they try to take what I do and turn it into just another patch that I get touchy.

 

[busmonkey]

In my eyes, fire suppression and, to an extent, rescue are the roles of the Fire Department.

Patient care, on the other hand, is purely the role of EMS.

In my eyes, there should be no Fire-Based EMS. EMS should be solely the role of municipal third services, private services, and my personal favorite hospital-based services. EMS is medicine, pure and simple.

I respect firefighters greatly for what they do. However, it's when they try to take what I do and turn it into just another patch that I get touchy.

I 100% agree with you... (And no, this isn't me trying to get more posts!) To an extent, I also believe that first response stabilization, if EMS is delayed is also O.K. but I agree, EMS is medical FD is rescue!

 

[firetender]

It's important for me to be friends to all, so I'll say this: The human beings I had the hardest time with while I was a medic were those who were rendering medical care and really weren't into it. Anyone who was doing it as a job requirement, which I've seen in the private sector, and whose heart was into something else entirely, generally were more toxic than helpful. I've encountered stations (under whatever umbrella) whose medics disdained dealing with human beings in need. I don't care who you work for, if other human beings aren't important to you and you'd rather be somewhere else, PLEASE...be somewhere else!

 

[busmonkey]

It's important for me to be friends to all, so I'll say this: The human beings I had the hardest time with while I was a medic were those who were rendering medical care and really weren't into it. Anyone who was doing it as a job requirement, which I've seen in the private sector, and whose heart was into something else entirely, generally were more toxic than helpful. I've encountered stations (under whatever umbrella) whose medics disdained dealing with human beings in need. I don't care who you work for, if other human beings aren't important to you and you'd rather be somewhere else, PLEASE...be somewhere else!

While I agree, firetender, I do not see the relevance. Not to be rude, but I am just confused as to how this relates to the topic at hand. Please elaborate! Thank you

 

[firetender]

While I agree, firetender, I do not see the relevance. Not to be rude, but I am just confused as to how this relates to the topic at hand. Please elaborate! Thank you

one of the most frustrating things in EMS is the finger-pointing that goes on between medics that have more to do with territoriality than anything else. The FD vs. EMS rivalry is a case in point.

I have experienced FD systems who make clear their priorities are other than emergency medical care of human beings, which usually shows in scheduling that makes it almost impossible to keep up their medic's skills. Issues about that are well-represented on this site.

The problem boils down to making broad generalizations about the attitude of Fire Departments as a whole. Issues such as the above are department by department.

It hurts us all when people claim FF just don't care about providing medical care, because it's a lie. There are many FF's to whom I'd entrust my life. Maybe more than Doctors !-) AND I have seen some potentially good ones hampered from further developing their skills even though they themselves really wanted to go further.

As a broad generalization on my own, I've said before that I believe EMS should be SEPARATE from FD. For me, that is a matter of establishing departments with medical focus, consistent exposure to such calls, dedication to increasing standards of care (without, for example, having to compete for funds with a new fire truck), and a "culture" that lives and breathes emergency medical intervention.

While such things need to be taken seriously, they can be addressed without characterizing everyone in a certain kind of service (Vollies, Privates, Hospital-based, Fire, Municipal, and on and on) as having one attitude.

 

[busmonkey]

Thank you firetender, your post makes more sense now. I wasn't quite sure as to what your post meant.

In regards to the whole EMS vs. FD issue it is more clear to me now. I wasn't sure why people disliked the FD and vice versa, and I see now it is more of a territorial thing! Thanks for everyone elaborating.

 

[njff/emt]

My view is the same, FD fights fire, EMS takes care of the sick and dying., Although my town is kinda weird even though there may be the same services elsewhere., We have a combo paid/vollie fire with EMS during 6-1800 hrs., We also have volunteer FA that takes care of the rest., I've been on plenty of calls where i've heard trash talking after the fact mainly from paid fire., Some paid guys view volunteers as useless and don't know why the organization exists., All paid FF's are EMTs., The techs on EMS (except 2) are not FFs., Fire responds as first responder if EMS is busy while waiting for an ambulance., Another aspect is alot of paid personnel just don't like volunteers., Either its personal opinion, conflict, or that the job went to their head., Vol. fire even has some problems with paid pretty much on the same basis., Fire also does extrication, so at night the worlds clash and work together momentarily, then go back to usual., Granted not all paid personnel are like that but just afew., You see many different views while sitting on the fence between two professions., My opinion we need to have a meeting, get out the angst, and try to work together without backstabbing., But then again people just look at me and think I'm crazy just for thinking that., As far as i see it, the rivalry will never end in some places.