Coronavirus Discussion Thread

E tank

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Yes, there are life challenges posed by public-health measures. Doesn’t justify someone willfully engaging in behavior that poses a public health hazard.
A very direct question for you: have you ever treated a COVID patient?
The question is what is "engaging in behavior that poses a public health hazard" mean? It's different in San Francisco, Chicago, Miami and Bozeman, MT. And even in those places going to church is not going to a bar is not "protesting" en masse is not going to the grocery store.

There are absurd, completely arbitrary public health edicts in places like San Francisco that have no basis in science at all. An example would be the 12 person limit to indoor church services in buildings that have a capacity of at least 500 people.

And I doubt seriously that Anthony Fauci has ever treated a COVID patient so I can't see how that is even relevant to the discussion.
 

Summit

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It is sad that we have some really poorly crafted health orders out there. Cali seems to be the epicenter.
 

ffemt8978

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Yes, there are life challenges posed by public-health measures. Doesn’t justify someone willfully engaging in behavior that poses a public health hazard.
A very direct question for you: have you ever treated a COVID patient?
Thank you for making my point. You chose a perfunctory acknowledgement and dismissal of the other risks to ask me a direct question about the current risk.
 

Carlos Danger

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I am fairly libertarian in most regards however with masks I do not disagree to the point of contention. I rather wear a mask to avoid the social confrontations of those who are fearful and not medically inclined. However, I can agree that masks can reduce transmission from droplets and still contend that they are redundant to social distancing and with asymptomatic persons.
Pretty much my feeling. I do not at all support government-mandated masking, but rather than continuing to be "that guy" as I have most of my life, the wiser me of today just puts a mask on when I go into the store. I wear them all day anyway at work. Another 20 minutes isn't going to hurt me in any way, and if it reduces the anxiety of others a little and lessens the chance of some type of confrontation, then I'll play along.

Rather than address the critics of my previous posts point-by-point, I'll just reiterate my position:

There are three potential ways this thing ends:
1) The virus mutates into a form which is far less contagious or far less deadly
2) We achieve population immunity as a result of widespread vaccination
3) We achieve population immunity

Any of those are possibilities, but can we count on an effective, safe, affordable vaccine being developed anytime soon? The answer to that is clearly no. Can we count on the virus mutating itself into harmlessness? Also no. Is herd immunity a perfect solution? Of course not. On balance, what other option is there? They say that with an R0 of 2-3, we need about 60% of the population to develop antibodies in order to see a very significant, natural slowing of the spread. Many estimate that about 25% of the population has been exposed already. How else does this thing end?

What about the vulnerable? There's no reason why we shouldn't focus our efforts on protecting them. That's what I've been saying all along. Multigenerational households? Old folks needing to go grocery shopping? We put a man on the moon using technology developed in the 1950's; I think we can figure it out. Families, neighbors, churches, community organizations, local governments can do it all. Many grocery stores voluntarily open earlier for vulnerable people. Maybe some could require masks of everyone and dramatically increase cleaning in order to help the elderly feel safer and attract their business. Grocery delivery services and ride-sharing services have instituted steep discounts for elderly folks. There's a lot more that we can think of, too. We can allow healthy people in their 20s, 30's, and 40's to go to work and have a drink at the bar with their friends. Maybe the obese diabetics should exercise some personal responsibility and choose not to join them for beers?

Does the social distancing even help? I mean, yeah, you lock the whole population in their house for months under threat of criminal penalty, and you'll see transmission slow. I don't think that's the real question, though. How much of this is really necessary? Why do bars that serve food get to open but bars that don't serve food had to fire all their employees? Why are church services and outdoor concerts and sporting events banned, but public political protests advocating left-wing positions are encouraged? Why do surfers on isolated beaches with no one around, or people jogging on the beach or boardwalk or people sitting in their cars with the windows rolled up at the drive-in Easter church service need to be fined? Why are remote state parks and national forests closed? I think we know the real reason, and it has little or nothing to do with slowing the spread of the virus.

Masks? It's pretty indisputable that in the types of controlled environments that are conducive to study, the wearing of clean, properly constructed masks can slow the spread of respiratory droplets and prevent aerosolization of them to a significant degree. If you are intubating someone, or spending hours in close quarters with a patient caring for them, or sharing a cab or crowded elevator or helicopter cabin with others, there's probably some real value there. But how pertinent is that really to people walking past each other in the grocery store? Is a significant benefit not conferred on the wearer alone, regardless of whether others have them on? Does the cleanliness or construction of the mask matter at all?

The negative effects of economic downturn on public health, quality of life, and mortality rate are practically ignored. We know that in recessions, rates of alcoholism and abuse of other drugs, depression, anxiety, suicide, child and elder abuse, hunger, homelessness, and overall mortality rates increase. Why are we pretending that isn't true? Why are we just automatically assuming that whatever benefit is conferred from restrictions is definitely worth it? Doesn't seem very scientific to me.

What about the political costs of government officials overplaying their hand in general, often hypocritically? Public animosity towards these interventions and the officials who issue the diktats and then (in some very high profile cases) exempt themselves or their cronies does not bode well for compliance with similar orders in the future, perhaps during a much worse epidemic. You can't tell people "the sky is falling" too many times before they just stop listening.

IF you are of the camp that slowing transmission is undesirable because it "delays herd immunity," then how exactly do you propose to achieve the optimal prevalence rate and hold it there? For herd immunity, can you state: target seroprevalence results that indicate community immunity, current seroprevalence rates, and duration of immunity?
Why are those who promote the idea that allowing the virus to mostly spread naturally (aside from providing vigorous protections from those whose health status or age makes them more vulnerable than the general population) expected to have an answer to every question but those who promote the "close everything down and make everyone wear masks" approach don't have to provide even a general idea on what the goal really is and how we should expect this thing to end, OR to justify the countless societal costs exacted by that approach? Seems a little one-sided and hypocritical.
 

RedBlanketRunner

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By all means, get on with your lives. But don't be a vector. That's the problem. Deliberately not wearing masks and practicing social distancing converts an individual with established rights and freedoms into a negligent irresponsible potential vector
 

ffemt8978

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By all means, get on with your lives. But don't be a vector. That's the problem. Deliberately not wearing masks and practicing social distancing converts an individual with established rights and freedoms into a negligent irresponsible potential vector
For once you said something I agree with
 

RocketMedic

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I love how Senõr Danger completely misses both the point and the fact that the examples of the USA and Sweden are being ravaged by preventable public communication while populations that don’t associate a cloth face mask and some personal space with tyranny are not.
 

Carlos Danger

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I love how Senõr Danger completely misses both the point and the fact that the examples of the USA and Sweden are being ravaged by preventable public communication while populations that don’t associate a cloth face mask and some personal space with tyranny are not.
Well, those are certainly all words.
 

CCCSD

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I love how Senõr Danger completely misses both the point and the fact that the examples of the USA and Sweden are being ravaged by preventable public communication while populations that don’t associate a cloth face mask and some personal space with tyranny are not.

I’d like to buy a coherent sentence for $100, Alex.
 

RedBlanketRunner

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For once you said something I agree with
Look, it's simply about understanding, fathoming where a person is coming from and trying to grasp a different point of view. The wearing masks and social distancing thing is a perfect example. People getting belligerent to the point of demanding others remove their masks.
Average person who disregards the basics simply has poor understanding and grasp. Many probably couldn't come very close to explaining what a vector is. I said vector in the circles here on this forum and it's a given. Greater understanding.

It's the same when I mentioned driving a hearse converted to an ambulance and we had no authority to give treatments. People think that suddenly type 1s appeared with a full load of equipment and a long list of accepted procedures they could undertake. The modern day ambulance services went through over 50 years of evolution. When I first learned first aid rescue it was some silliness waving the patients arms around. CPR wasn't even on the horizon until 15 years down the road.
Expand your understanding of where people are coming from. Try to grasp what their experiences were.

Just imagine stepping out on the stage at that recent rally in Tulsa, pointing at the crowd and announcing, "You people are all vectors!" Would they all rush to put masks on or shout you down and tell you to get off the stage?
 
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Carlos Danger

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I love how Senõr Danger completely misses both the point and the fact that the examples of the USA and Sweden are being ravaged by preventable public communication while populations that don’t associate a cloth face mask and some personal space with tyranny are not.
After reading this a few times, I think I understand.

Señor Danger does not miss the point. Señor Danger recognizes that some countries have had handled this thing differently. Señor Danger also knows that the media have misled you into thinking the the US has been hit far worse AND handled the thing far worse than most of the world, because if you take out just a few of our most densely populated urban centers, which is fair to do because they are not representative of most of the US, that the US doesn't even make the top ten countries in terms of known infections per million or deaths per million. Señor Danger wonders if you knew that?
 

ffemt8978

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Look, it's simply about understanding, fathoming where a person is coming from and trying to grasp a different point of view. The wearing masks and social distancing thing is a perfect example. People getting belligerent to the point of demanding others remove their masks.
Average person who disregards the basics simply has poor understanding and grasp. Many probably couldn't come very close to explaining what a vector is. I said vector in the circles here on this forum and it's a given. Greater understanding.

It's the same when I mentioned driving a hearse converted to an ambulance and we had no authority to give treatments. People think that suddenly type 1s appeared with a full load of equipment and a long list of accepted procedures they could undertake. The modern day ambulance services went through over 50 years of evolution. When I first learned first aid rescue it was some silliness waving the patients arms around. CPR wasn't even on the horizon until 15 years down the road.
Expand your understanding of where people are coming from. Try to grasp what their experiences were.

Just imagine stepping out on the stage at that recent rally in Tulsa, pointing at the crowd and announcing, "You people are all vectors!" Would they all rush to put masks on or shout you down and tell you to get off the stage?
I understand where people are coming from far more than I let on. Where they are coming from is a factor, but not as important as what they are trying to accomplish and how. In today's society of intolerance for everyone and everything not on a particular side, those of us who are in the middle are left facing two opposing extremes on any issue, when in reality there should be a middle of the road option that would work.

The same thing could be said of the COVID19 response by governments and health organizations. By dropping the ball early and not implenting sensible recommendations (recommendations, not requirements), they were forced to implement draconian requirements that place extreme burdens on people and the economy. Some people were accepting of these requirements because they either feel this is the most severe threat we've ever faced (news flash...it's not), or because they don't seem to have the ability to consider more than one thing at a time.
 

RedBlanketRunner

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Well, I'll toss out one reason why Americans are in such a hurry to reopen the economy. Affluenza. All those motorhomes, RVs and other non essential toys just sitting there.
As for demanding the right to not wear masks. .........................

It's a little funny. For around 15 years doing the health and hygiene gig in the boonies around here, I was so used to wearing a mask I quit noticing I was wearing it, and near bathing in alcohol, up to a liter a day. And now, I've encountered about 20 people from the outlying areas making a point they are doing like I was. Pointing to their masks and holding up hand sanitizer bottles. They're quite happy to be doing their part in disease control.
Of course there are extenuating circumstances. Widespread epidemics are commonplace here and all the working class and farmers are totally victimized by the medical system. Anything they can do to get a little control of their lives is okay by them.
 
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Carlos Danger

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Well, I'll toss out one reason why Americans are in such a hurry to reopen the economy. Affluenza. All those motorhomes, RVs and other non essential toys just sitting there.
Yeah, it's all greed.

It has nothing at all to do with the fact that the majority of our population lives paycheck to paycheck and struggles to make their rent or mortgage payment if they miss a single paycheck. It couldn't possibly be that the highest unemployment rates since the Great Depression nearly 100 years ago are certain to cause very real problems that far outlast COVID-19, especially when superimposed on pre-existing consumer debt, mental health, and drug abuse crises.

No, it definitely can't be any of that…..it's gotta be the RV's.
 
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GMCmedic

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I don't understand why people in other countries are always obsessed about what we're doing in America, more specifically, what they think were doing wrong.
 

luke_31

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I don't understand why people in other countries are always obsessed about what we're doing in America, more specifically, what they think were doing wrong.
It’s that they feel their way is better and if we don’t follow their path we are wrong.
 

RedBlanketRunner

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I don't understand why people in other countries are always obsessed about what we're doing in America, more specifically, what they think were doing wrong.
You don't? Let's see.
1. American has been the #1 trend setter for the world for quite a few years. In part thanks to Hollywood.
2. America has a habit of telling other countries what to do and how to live that far exceeds the British Empire colonization during it's heyday.
3. The world economy is more strongly affected by the US dollar than any other currency.
4. It's possible there are more American expats than any other country. (SE Asia has >150,000, myself included.)
5. The US military presence in foreign countries.
6. The US has placed itself and it's politics as the example of freedom and prosperity.
7. The US has a wide open door on foreign national property ownership and as such, there are several million big bucks persons and entities that watch it's internal goings on very carefully.(see note below)
8. And more recently of course, the US is the greatest threat to continue the spread of C-19 around the world.
And quite a few other reasons.
When a country has gone to such lengths to be front and center on the world stage what isn't understood is why Americans don't understand why people in other countries watch it so closely.

Property ownership, exemplified. Observed: Large real estate company in the SF bay area was doing an open house tour of available real estate. On several occasions they hosted large Chinese entourages. Very often these tours would simply drive past and glance at the properties for sale, not getting out of their vehicles. At the end of the tour they might remove a property or two from the list then buy all the rest. The has gone on for many years all over the country. Renting American homes to Americans is a gigantic cash cow. How much of America do American's really own?

And of course, how many million mortgages in American are held by foreign investment operations? It's almost impossible to trace where a mortgage actually is with the bundling and rebundling. A labyrinthine maze of financial transactions.
How could it possibly be that Americans wonder why they are constantly in the international spotlight?
 
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CCCSD

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#8. Wrong. China. You really believe all the bs coming out of that country? If so, you are woefully ignorant of the world.

BTW, your timelines on your childhood stories and your supposed medical training and history don’t add up. You would be around 80 years old from some of the claims you’ve made.
 

Carlos Danger

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Property ownership, exemplified. Observed: Large real estate company in the SF bay area was doing an open house tour of available real estate. On several occasions they hosted large Chinese entourages. Very often these tours would simply drive past and glance at the properties for sale, not getting out of their vehicles. At the end of the tour they might remove a property or two from the list then buy all the rest. The has gone on for many years. How much of America do American's really own?

And of course, how many million mortgages in American are held by foreign investment operations? It's almost impossible to trace where a mortgage actually is with the bundling and rebundling. A labyrinthine maze of financial transactions.
How could it possibly be that Americans wonder why they are constantly in the international spotlight?

So lots of land in the SF area and lots of mortgages are backed by Chinese investors. So what? Do you have a problem with the Chinese?
 

E tank

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You don't? Let's see.
1. American has been the #1 trend setter for the world for quite a few years. In part thanks to Hollywood.
2. America has a habit of telling other countries what to do and how to live that far exceeds the British Empire colonization during it's heyday.
3. The world economy is more strongly affected by the US dollar than any other currency.
4. It's possible there are more American expats than any other country. (SE Asia has >150,000, myself included.)
5. The US military presence in foreign countries.
6. The US has placed itself and it's politics as the example of freedom and prosperity.
7. The US has a wide open door on foreign national property ownership and as such, there are several million big bucks persons and entities that watch it's internal goings on very carefully.(see note below)
8. And more recently of course, the US is the greatest threat to continue the spread of C-19 around the world.
And quite a few other reasons.
When a country has gone to such lengths to be front and center on the world stage what isn't understood is why Americans don't understand why people in other countries watch it so closely.

Property ownership, exemplified. Observed: Large real estate company in the SF bay area was doing an open house tour of available real estate. On several occasions they hosted large Chinese entourages. Very often these tours would simply drive past and glance at the properties for sale, not getting out of their vehicles. At the end of the tour they might remove a property or two from the list then buy all the rest. The has gone on for many years. How much of America do American's really own?

And of course, how many million mortgages in American are held by foreign investment operations? It's almost impossible to trace where a mortgage actually is with the bundling and rebundling. A labyrinthine maze of financial transactions.
How could it possibly be that Americans wonder why they are constantly in the international spotlight?

9. Without US lead NATO containment of the USSR, Europe especially would look like East Berlin in the 1960's right now.

There is no other entity on the planet that has the resources to counter authoritarian, totalitarian threats other than the US. The US presence in foreign countries is by invitation (you left that part out).

What frosts people about Americans with deconstructionist ideologies that are based on what amount to Marxist tropes is the double standards and hypocrisy that they depend on for their arguments. No credible claims that the US doesn't have dark episodes in our history can be made. But to point those episodes out as if they are in isolation in world history is a joke.

That there are Americans absolutely willing to sell their country down the river is another conversation all together, and that's for Americans on American soil.
 
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