concealed weapon carry

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Aidey said:
There is a difference between no reason and a bad reason. There may not be very many cases of shootings for no reasons, but there have been plenty for bad reasons. Introducing guns into an environment where people with poor training are dealing with vulnerable populations is asking for an increase in shootings for bad reasons.
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I do not think this is true. I've never even heard of it happening. Again, I'm not saying that it never has, just that it is very uncommon.

I think that CCW holders tend to be better trained and/or more cautious than you give them credit for. The Wichita Eagle looked at some stats and found that of over 51,000 CCW permit holders, only 27 had been convicted of a gun crime. I've seen similar stats for Texas and other places.

So the idea that a CCW holder is more likely to be involved in a gun crime is false. In fact, the opposite is true.
 
Need to have a gun, to misuse it.
 
Halothane said:
I do not think this is true. I've never even heard of it happening. Again, I'm not saying that it never has, just that it is very uncommon.
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You don't think there has ever been a questionable shooting involving someone legally carrying a gun? Cops don't even have a 100% "good shoot" rate.

We aren't talking about general public CCW holders dealing with other people in the general public. We are talking about people who are specifically called to help who are dealing with vulnerable populations they aren't trained to handle properly. We have a higher responsibility to the people we encounter, we know something is wrong with them, we know they need help. Do you really think that introducing guns into that environment isn't going to result in some very questionable shootings?
 
Why does being a paramedic lower the threshold for shooting someone? A threat is a threat, whether I'm at Wal Mart, work, or home. I'm not sure why you think paramedics who carry are going to be trigger happy lunatics. Many paramedics already do carry, and you have no idea. They obviously aren't going around shooting up the place.
 
truetiger said:
Why does being a paramedic lower the threshold for shooting someone? A threat is a threat, whether I'm at Wal Mart, work, or home. I'm not sure why you think paramedics who carry are going to be trigger happy lunatics. Many paramedics already do carry, and you have no idea. They obviously aren't going around shooting up the place.
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Where are these Paramedics who are carrying?

Some of the hospitals in the toughest neighborhoods have metal detectors and Police at the entrances. The few EMTs or Paramedics who have been caught carrying were quickly relied of their weapons. If the weapon was not legally registered and CC permit in hand, they were turned over to the Police. Even with the CC they were subject to any charges arrising from carrying a weapon into a hospital which is a no carry zone in most states unless you are law enforcement. Once they got through their legal mess with whatever charges on their record, they were then subject to whatever punishment their company and the state saw appropriate.

If these Paramedics are carrying in your area, are they violating the no carry places? Are they taking these guns into jails, prisons and psych facilities? What are they using for lock boxes if their company obviously aren't providing one?

I think if there are Paramedics who are carrying it is probably in areas with very little crime and the weapon is more of a "ha ha" we are carrying just to defy their company's policy and not really for protection. Those who work in rough areas know the dangers a gun can bring and put their security on their scene safety skills and the Police. They know if it is known Paramedics are carrying weapons they will no longer have trust as a health care provider. Ask some of the Public Safety Officers who used to try playing two roles and see the problems they had gaining trust to provide medical care while having a gun at their side.
 
truetiger said:
Why does being a paramedic lower the threshold for shooting someone? A threat is a threat, whether I'm at Wal Mart, work, or home. I'm not sure why you think paramedics who carry are going to be trigger happy lunatics. Many paramedics already do carry, and you have no idea. They obviously aren't going around shooting up the place.
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It doesn't lower the threshold to shoot someone, it raises the threshold of responsibility to not harm people. Especially when we know ahead of time that we are going to be dealing with difficult people. I am not saying we have to accept being assaulted, but there are other, better, options than CCW.

If CCW in EMS is allowed on a national level, how many people with dementia, hypoglycemia, encephalopathy, psychiatric problems etc will be shot by EMS personnel with crappy training in how to deal with those people before there will be a massive backlash?
 
We had been picking this girl up for bs chest pain for the last week (2 transports 2 AMA's). She'd fake going unconscious and then complain of chest pain, always meeting us outside. We go last night for an "unconscious person", turns out she's in custody. We had no idea we had been visiting an active meth lab. You never know exactly what kind of scene you're getting yourself into. There was nothing in the dispatch info that would trip a deputy being sent. These guys (and gals) cooking the meth will do anything to stay out of jail/keep cooking, including taking you out. Wouldn't you want a firearm? You know they have more than a few.
 
truetiger said:
These guys (and gals) cooking the meth will do anything to stay out of jail/keep cooking, including taking you out. Wouldn't you want a firearm? You know they have more than a few.
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Would you really shoot a gun in a meth lab?
 
Halothane said:
The problem with this concern is that it just doesn't happen.

When is the last time you heard about a CCW holder shooting someone for no reason? Not saying it's never happened, but it is not exactly a big a problem. You have probably been in the presence of an armed CCW holder many, many times and never had any idea.

This is not about creating "armed paramedics", this is about simply allowing private citizens who legally hold a CCW to exercise the same rights at work that they do when they are off the clock.
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The problem with this concern is that it's exactly what people in this thread are advocating when they throw out the term "assault" and argue that they can use their CCW every time their assaulted.
 
Aidey said:
If CCW in EMS is allowed on a national level, how many people with dementia, hypoglycemia, encephalopathy, psychiatric problems etc will be shot by EMS personnel with crappy training in how to deal with those people before there will be a massive backlash?
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Why is the assumption that CCW holders are poorly trained? Many states have educational and training requirements to obtain your CCW, or otherwise show proof of a firearms safety course, qualification, or some other type of course that admittedly varies from state to state, but does exist.

What makes you think that CCW holders are any less trained then a cop? Cops have to qualify twice a year on a laughably simple test. I know people who arent cops who go shooting and train far more often then twice a year.


Aidey said:
What if the alternative is getting blown up?
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A perfect example of threat assessment and evasion. When faced with a life threatening situation, the first instinct isnt to draw down and start blasting ala Hot Fuzz. Examine your threat, determine your course of action and act. When you enter a building, do you note the exits? Windows and doors? MEth labs have certain things that give hints as to their true purpose. NJSP has been running excellent courses in clandestine labs recently.
 
Bullets said:
Why is the assumption that CCW holders are poorly trained? Many states have educational and training requirements to obtain your CCW, or otherwise show proof of a firearms safety course, qualification, or some other type of course that admittedly varies from state to state, but does exist.

What makes you think that CCW holders are any less trained then a cop? Cops have to qualify twice a year on a laughably simple test. I know people who arent cops who go shooting and train far more often then twice a year.
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Let me be even clearer since ya'all seem to think I'm implying CCWs have poor gun training. I am saying EMS as a whole has a horrific lack of training when dealing with the non-neurotypical. That is the lack of training that is going to get patients shot.
 
Aidey said:
Let me be even clearer since ya'all seem to think I'm implying CCWs have poor gun training. I am saying EMS as a whole has a horrific lack of training when dealing with the non-neurotypical. That is the lack of training that is going to get patients shot.
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You could have stopped right there...
 
Well, yeah. But I've already been misunderstood twice. I don't want anyone thinking that I'm saying that EMS CCW holders have less training than the general public CCW holders. :rolleyes:
 
Aidey said:
What if the alternative is getting blown up?
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I'll take a maybe over a sure thing when it comes to getting maybe-killed. Not all meth labs explode from a few gunshots or a harsh word.

Look, Aidey, I'm not for unrestricted carry. Atlas_Flyer had the best solution of all, intensive and specialized training with an emphasis on avoidance and then proper use of a weapon. But you and the other naysayers cannot remove the fact that we, as EMS, do go into people's homes, out into the wilderness, etc, and perform medical care unarmed, unsecure and unprepared to get into a fight. There is no realistic way to send police on every call, nor is there a good way to secure every scene remotely. I guarantee that that fire crew in Georgia thought everything was normal until they stepped in and Rambo stepped out to meet them- inside the home.

EMS carry will result in a few shootings a year, yes. It will also result in a few deaths. It will also result in fewer assaults and fewer injuries to EMS workers.
 
Rocketmedic40 said:
EMS carry will result in a few shootings a year, yes. It will also result in a few deaths. It will also result in fewer assaults and fewer injuries to EMS workers.
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How do you figure that?

Once you make it well known that EMS is carrying a gun you will no longer be viewed as a neutral health care professional. You will be met with distrust and now place a bullseye on your back just as Police Officers have to deal with. You also make your truck even more inviting since there is a chance of scoring not only narcotics but now any weapons you might have in your vehicle.

In the meth house scenario, the patient was outside of the house. There was no reason to enter someone's home if you already have the patient. You are not the police and should not engage a situation because you think it is a "meth hous". Get your patient and get the hell out of there even if you think the patient is faking chest pains. You can sort out the faking part when you are a safe distance away at the hospital. Most of EMS involves scene safety and commonsense. Unless you are drawing your gun on every call and keep it drawn, you probably are not going to prevent much of anything. The ones who could hurt you the most are probably the ones you suspect the least. You will have a greater chance of being murdered by a family member or lover than on the job as an EMT.
 
Clipper1 said:
How do you figure that?

Once you make it well known that EMS is carrying a gun you will no longer be viewed as a neutral health care professional. You will be met with distrust and now place a bullseye on your back just as Police Officers have to deal with. You also make your truck even more inviting since there is a chance of scoring not only narcotics but now any weapons you might have in your vehicle.

In the meth house scenario, the patient was outside of the house. There was no reason to enter someone's home if you already have the patient. You are not the police and should not engage a situation because you think it is a "meth hous". Get your patient and get the hell out of there even if you think the patient is faking chest pains. You can sort out the faking part when you are a safe distance away at the hospital. Most of EMS involves scene safety and commonsense. Unless you are drawing your gun on every call and keep it drawn, you probably are not going to prevent much of anything. The ones who could hurt you the most are probably the ones you suspect the least. You will have a greater chance of being murdered by a family member or lover than on the job as an EMT.
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You're on a routine call for reported "chest pain". Like so many other days, you and your crew reach a home, make entry into the home (she can't get up) and go to the back bedroom- only to find that your only way out is now blocked by a crazed white guy with a shotgun and a hockey mask. He grins and starts talking about how you're his sacrifices and are going to be acceptable to God.
 
Rocketmedic40 said:
You're on a routine call for reported "chest pain". Like so many other days, you and your crew reach a home, make entry into the home (she can't get up) and go to the back bedroom- only to find that your only way out is now blocked by a crazed white guy with a shotgun and a hockey mask. He grins and starts talking about how you're his sacrifices and are going to be acceptable to God.
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If you are going to create such a rare statistical scenario as justification/evidence, I am going to have to extrapolate that as well and say what are the odds that the particular medic on duty that day is one of the few who will choose to carry? To line up that maniacal man with the odds of the medic carrying....we are now in some very rarely visited territory on the statistical scale.

Unless with your example you are making the gigantic leap that if this were approved, every medic/emt would carry...which again is astronomical odds.
 
Rocketmedic40 said:
You're on a routine call for reported "chest pain". Like so many other days, you and your crew reach a home, make entry into the home (she can't get up) and go to the back bedroom- only to find that your only way out is now blocked by a crazed white guy with a shotgun and a hockey mask. He grins and starts talking about how you're his sacrifices and are going to be acceptable to God.
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If you see "Jason" coming at you in a house by surprise with a shotgun, chain-saw, ice pick or Q-tip, I doubt if you will be able to get your concealed weapon out quick enough or with enough skill to do any good.

Maybe you should take an EMS self defense class and see more realistic and practical scenarios which actually could be of some use. You also should avoid watching scary movies before a shift. The real world can be scary and there are situations which require being alert and using your head for altenatives rather than imagining Jason is lurking behind every corner.

There are also many situations where it would just be stupid to carry a gun such as in places where there are combusibles and explosive materials or in crowds.
 
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