Actual experience providing field civilian medical care under fire?

[airborne2chairborne]

That's one thing people forget, and those who are truly for the legal ability to carry and own keep pushing at: a firearm is a last resort. Even for the military in times of war with the least restrictive ROE/EOF policies that holds true (although that last resort is immediately utilized when facing an armed enemy). The whole "oh you can use it whenever" bs is the stereotype that anti-gun advocates claim, and it's as incorrect as stating that spoons make people fat.

Anyway civilian side I've worked in some bad areas, and the phrase "I'm not a cop, I'm a paramedic (since a lot of idiots don't know what an EMT is, all they know is it's 3 letters) has defused every bad situation outside of the rig. I wouldn't want to use a firearm inside a moving rig anyway, it would either go through the side and injure someone else or ricochet and hit me or the driver. If you want protection, a taser would be much more effective and safe.

 

[EpiEMS]

Anyway civilian side I've worked in some bad areas, and the phrase "I'm not a cop, I'm a paramedic (since a lot of idiots don't know what an EMT is, all they know is it's 3 letters) has defused every bad situation outside of the rig.

Boom, right on the money. Whether it's with young adults who are worried about calling because their friend OD'ed, or people who might get a little too, ah, physical, saying that you're here to help has worked for me.

 

[ffemt8978]

Boom, right on the money. Whether it's with young adults who are worried about calling because their friend OD'ed, or people who might get a little too, ah, physical, saying that you're here to help has worked for me.

Around here we have to say, "Soy un medico de los bomberos." or we shorten it to "Soy un medico."

 

[AnthonyM83]

The feeling that having a sidearm would make it possible or easier to do the job is exactly what most firearms trainers are trying to drum out of you.

But that's almost a moot point, because the vast majority of those few few EMS workers who would like to carry guns on-duty (and the ones who actually do it without telling anyone) don't have that mentality. So, no need to drum it out. The weapons aren't to facilitate your duties...they're for when the crap hits the fan and patient care is the last thing on your mind, often.

I am still not receiving communications from anyone, either email or otherwise, saying they personally have had to use force or threat of force (openly carrying) to execute their duties.

Duh...pretty much no one carries in order to execute their EMS duties...it's for DEFENSE. It's NOT for execution of duties.

 

[Tigger]

For every murder, there are cases of great bodily harm done. For every case of great bodily harm, there are almost endless cases of Near Tragedies.

Why aren't they in the news? No one reports it. We don't even report it. Assaults on healthcare providers are under reported (there was an article on that somewhere).


I am NOT advocated the carrying of firearms for EMS.
BUT yes I have definitely been in situations where I could have used a gun on a mob to gain access to the patient because the scene became uncontrolled after we were on-scene. The cops were in active fights, so couldn't help out. A FEW times, too. Not an isolated event. That's just ME personally...times that by however many other providers have also had that happen. BUT I wouldn't have used a firearm EVEN IF I had one with me.

So, there you go.


And if you want to add stories of EMT injury and near-misses, there are plenty more. But we don't even report it to our supervisors for a lot of near-miss homicides on us...much less get police reports and media attention.

For what it's worth I don't think anyone, regardless of who they are, would find it to be a good choice to point a gun at an angry mob. Sounds like a good way to get shot to me, others' mileage may vary.

As for the last part about not reporting it, report it! Seriously there is no reason not to report a "near-homicide," it would be ridiculous not to. If there are no statistics we are going to struggle to solve this problem, and make no mistake, it is an issue. Why not get a police report taken? How could it hurt?

I guess I could use some enlightenment here, why are so many EMS providers so loathe to report assaults on themselves? We don't see the police letting anyone get away with it, why should do we? Yes, sometimes the patient suffers from some sort of illness that causes them to an assault a provider, but when a bystander throws a punch at you for not doing a good job on scene, that needs to be reported.

 

[AnthonyM83]

I guess I could use some enlightenment here, why are so many EMS providers so loathe to report assaults on themselves? We don't see the police letting anyone get away with it, why should do we? Yes, sometimes the patient suffers from some sort of illness that causes them to an assault a provider, but when a bystander throws a punch at you for not doing a good job on scene, that needs to be reported.

Good question. I guess often times it tends to happen more in the really really busy areas. So, 1) the providers are worn out already and would rather just get back to station to sleep, 2) in those same areas, it happens so often, it's not considered that big of a deal...sometimes almost seen like a right of passage, 3) a lot of them are psych patients, 4) arrest usually means court, which means kinks in your personal schedule. And honestly, the overall feeling that a lot of them are going to just get "lost in the system".

And I'm sure there's always a feeling of "getting trouble" from management (why wasn't he restrained, why didn't you ask for more help, why were you that close to him.

I don't have the best answers for you. And certainly can't defend the mentality...just trying to convey it...

 

[ffemt8978]

DT4EMS pointed it out in another thread. Our mentality in EMS is that we have combative "patients", not combative attackers. We look for ways to NOT hold our patients responsible for assaulting us.

 

[DrParasite]

I guess I could use some enlightenment here, why are so many EMS providers so loathe to report assaults on themselves? We don't see the police letting anyone get away with it, why should do we? Yes, sometimes the patient suffers from some sort of illness that causes them to an assault a provider, but when a bystander throws a punch at you for not doing a good job on scene, that needs to be reported.

because all too often, nothing will get done.

a coworker of mine got her *** beat. like serious injuries. and EDP went from calm to 100% psycho in the back of the truck during a transport. Supervisor said she couldn't file charges against her attacker, or if she did, her employer wouldn't back her. kinda causes you to lose that warm and fuzzy feeling. Spoke to a cop about it, he told me filling charges are often a waste of time, as they will either be thrown out by the judge (because it was during a medical emergency or they are edps), or the person already has a record, so assault on an EMS person added on won't phase them at all.

As for the original topic, i think it's a poor question. very few people who are armed in EMS have used their weapons to aid someone else. similarly, very few police officers have used their weapons to aid someone else. many cops go their entire careers without ever drawing their firearm, let alone discharging it. doesn't mean the cops should give up carrying their guns. I know I would rather carry a firearm with me for my entire life and never use it, instead of never carry a firewarm and find myself in a life threatening situation where I would need to defend myself, and find myself completely unarmed.

how many lives have kevlar vests saved among EMS workers? I don't know. were any EMS workers not injured because they were wearing vests? I don't know.

a former coworker of mine told me a story from his past, one that i think is relevant to this topic. He was on the ambulance in a not so nice city, and was dispatched to a bar that was well known for having, lets say, less than law abiding clientele. He pulled up, and had a local police officer right behind him. Now the officer is 5 ft nothing, maybe 130 lbs, not all that intimidating, especially considering the clientele are almost all over 200 lbs. She tells the crew not to enter until she gets something out of the truck of her car. And she comes back with a 12 gauge shotgun on her shoulder. When asked by the EMS crew as to why, her response was quite simple: "I am going to go in first, and this is just to remind everyone to behave." They entered, got their patient and had no issues.

Would they have been accosted if she didn't have the shotgun? don't know. nor do I know how many altercations were avoided because one person had a (big) gun, and the other decided not to have an altercation because of said (big) gun.

btw, I don't carry a gun with me on duty or off duty. I don't own any firearms. but I do enjoy target shooting when I do go, and am a pretty good shot. And I am friends with cops, many who carry off duty 24/7, some who have even pulled their guns while off duty when they found themselves in the middle of crimes in progress.

 

[mycrofft]

The only flaw here is that a the sample is so small. I'm encouraged by the lively conversation.

 

[DPM]

Perhaps the scope of the question could be expanded...

As a civilian EMS provider, has anyone used or felt they needed to use a firearm while on duty. And I use the term 'use' lightly. To me this doesn't just mean discharging it, but every step of escalation as well.

 

[mycrofft]

I purposely wanted only real life incidents. Half the users under thirty and male (and a considerable number of females) feel they want or need lethal force, we have established that.
As I note earlier, like the rampant latex and peanut allergy notices, "where are the piles of bodies"? Where are the actual incidents?

 

[Tigger]

because all too often, nothing will get done.

a coworker of mine got her *** beat. like serious injuries. and EDP went from calm to 100% psycho in the back of the truck during a transport. Supervisor said she couldn't file charges against her attacker, or if she did, her employer wouldn't back her. kinda causes you to lose that warm and fuzzy feeling. Spoke to a cop about it, he told me filling charges are often a waste of time, as they will either be thrown out by the judge (because it was during a medical emergency or they are edps), or the person already has a record, so assault on an EMS person added on won't phase them at all.
to defend myself, and find myself completely unarmed.

This I can understand completely. It is not likely that anything regarding a patient experiencing some sort of mental health crisis will result in anything brought down through the legal system.

I'm thinking more about bystanders and family members that are not suffering from anything besides grief or hysteria and assault a provider. These incidents also go unreported, even though something certainly could be done with them.

 

[AlphaButch]

No private EMS company I've ever worked for would pay me while I was in court on an assault case, of which 95% would be thrown out due to the patient's instability or "instability" during a medical crisis.- Hence, not only would it normally be a waste of time to press charges, it would also cost me money (since I could be working). Should these things be reported, I feel like they should, if anything just for some solid demographics.

 

[Handsome Robb]

Maybe it's different here but if we are assaulted or battered while on duty we are encouraged to report it and generally most PD officers are more than happy to help us make it happen. We actually had an instance the other night where my partner and I weren't going to report it but PD witnessed it and they said "It's up to you but as of now he's only going for a disturbing the peace as it stands...an assault on an HCP carries a hefty sentence that this guy deserves seeing as he pulled it on both of you." "Alright you sold me, where do I sign?" That's a single case but the guy had it coming. Don't kick my partner in the head and spit blood at me.

As for being paid while in court for assault charges while on duty I can't say for certain but they seem to be pretty good about compensating us for time outside of our standard shifts so I'd assume they do but I'd have to ask.

 

[Luno]

Unfortunately, for the posting, most people who do have to carry firearms in conjunction with their duty aren't dumb enough to post that information on a public forum. The otherside is that those events are best kept on a need to know basis, due simply to legality... just sayin... -luno

 

[mycrofft]

NVRob, yeah, I got a guy three more months in prison for trying to knowingly smear me with his hep C blood.

Luno, I'm always skeptical about how many employers would actually know they have a certain employee in the forum.

I was thinking last night. I hope this thread has not hurt of angered anyone who was injured by a patient or other on the job or in the line of duty.

 

[airborne2chairborne]

I'm sure as long as you don't post any identifying specifics you can't get in trouble legally with your work or privacy agencies. Like I can post "I had a patient from a vehicle collision I had to C spine", because it doesn't identify any person or specific even. On the other hand if I said the accident was on the 69 freeway near the whiskey ave exit at about 8 then there would be an issue.

Kinda just thought of this, most EMTs actually do carry weapons than can be used for self defense. I carried a metal clip board and I can garuantee that would ruin someone's day. Also there's trauma sheers, and I don't know about anyone else but I'd have no problem shoving them through an assailants throat, ribcage, abdomen, whatever if my life was on the line.

 

[mycrofft]

1. Objects not intended as weapons are hard to characterize as lethal weapons unless the wielder has experience and training. They are also usually harder to hurt or kill people with, versus say a KBar knife or unmounting an E cylinder and braining someone with it.
2. I do not know that most people would actually wade in and defend themselves in many instances where the assailant is right there on them and it requires hand to hand or hand powered weapons. But this is getting into the armchair tactician world again.

I know if someone went back and pieced together my posts and comments they could have a very good idea where I worked, where I live, etc. I just make sure the principles mentioned are dead, or I really don't care anymore.

 

[systemet]

To me, a handgun would be about as useful as an umbrella, or a unicorn, working as a paramedic. Scratch that, I'd rather walk around wearing a half dozen hand grenades, and wait and see how long it took for someone to pull a pin out.

 

[airborne2chairborne]

wasn't so much pointing that out for a "well what if..." armchair tactician thing, more just pointing out that EMTs are not totally defenseless out there and they don't need to carry a gun/knife/etc to have tools at their disposal (which a gun and a knife are, a tool) to protect themselves.