NYPD vs FDNY

[DesertMedic66]

Because mistakes never happen on extrication scenes.


On one hand, yes, we do see the video. On the other hand, we do not know the condition of the patient that prompted them to think a quicker way would have been better.


Would you fault crews for doing a rapid extrication of a patient in a time critical situation who became paralyzed after the move?

They said the patient died on impact

 

[adamjh3]

I think I remember seeing on an episode of "Help: Following Paramedics" PD doing extrication, but I'll let someone else chime in on that, since my experience with any sort of extrication other than maybe going down a flight of stairs is nil.

 

[Shishkabob]

The list of reasons why EMS shouldn't do extrication keeps going.

And your list is a complete and utter falacy.

Same opinion. We don't have any room on the ambulances for any kind of equipment,

Bull. Your current ambulances might not, but you don't speak for other agencies. I know an agency here in DFW where EMS has basic hydralic tools on ALL their ambulances, and they have the average sized ambulance.

we don't have any of the protective gear that we would need to keep us safe.

Than put the equipment on to keep us safe.

Most ambulances only have 2 crew members, so you would need at least 2 ambulances to do extrication.

Again, I know an agency here that has 2 crew members and yet they do extrication.

I work in a rural system... I've had MVCs happen where my "extrication team" consisted of a single firefighter volunteer showing up in an engine.

We don't have the training that would be needed.

Than do the training.

 

[usalsfyre]

EMS and PD have nothing to do with each other. EMS isn't preventing crimes or stopping crimes or investigating crimes, etc. PD isn't responding to medical calls (in my area) or doing anything EMS does.

The only thing in common is well both wear uniforms (some EMS don't) and both have lights and sirens.

If we're going to insist on placing EMS in a "public safety" category...

EMS (in most places) is individuals using their judgement and operating with relative autonomy on the best way to resolve a situation, a supervisor is only called for higher level situations and the deployment scheme tends to be mobile and flexible...which is an awful lot like how the PD operates.

The FD tends to travel in small packs, generally a supervisor is present at all times, there's next to no autonomy below a certain level(if you ride the bucket, you were hired from the neck down) and the deployment scheme is station based and very fixed.

Fire-base EMS started in a few places because no one else was doing it. It was soon co-opted by other elements within the fire service solely to expand their power-base and preserve jobs, witness the string of poorly done mergers (as recently as two years ago). If the majority of FDs really gave a crap about EMS they would devote career paths, money and staffing to it.

 

[Shishkabob]

They said the patient died on impact

All the stories I've read were the patient was alive after the initial accident, alive on arrival of crews, alive after the vehicle fell back on top of him, alive on arrival to the hospital, and dead later at the hospital.

 

[DesertMedic66]

And your list is a complete and utter falacy.



Bull. Your current ambulances might not, but you don't speak for other agencies. I know an agency here in DFW where EMS has basic hydralic tools on ALL their ambulances, and they have the average sized ambulance.


Than put the equipment on to keep us safe.



Again, I know an agency here that has 2 crew members and yet they do extrication.



Than do the training.





I work in a rural system... I've had MVCs happen where my "extrication" team consisted of a single firefighter volunteer showing up in an engine.

And to do all of that is going to cost alot of money. Along with medics and EMTs saying "you want us to do extrication, well then I better be getting a nice pay raise".
"you want me to train to do extrication? Well then that better be paid training" etc.

And yes for my area we have type 2 ambulances with no extra room for anything so we would have to get new ambulances.

Now I would love to hear someones argument to the state saying "we need more money so we can get all the equipment we need to do extrication, even though Fire already does extrication, already have the safety gear, already have the equipment needed, and already have the training needed."

 

[Shishkabob]

Just more excuses, really. There's not a single reason why EMS cannot / should not do basic extrication.



Fire is essentially a big wasteful sink anyhow. Why not divert the funds from them to EMS? We do more work anyhow, and they do the little side-gigs that are hardly ever done but use to justify their budgets...

 

[bstone]

If you want me to do extraction or any other sort of non-medical rescue then you can send me to the Fire Academy and train me in all the things they get trained for. I think that's called being a "Firefighter Paramedic" or "Firefighter EMT". You can also pay me to do that.

 

[usalsfyre]

Linuss, this "ERU" is a group that has unknown training, unknown certification and unknown skill. The FD, however, has well known training, well known certification and well known skill.

You haven't witnessed some of the things I've seen on FD run extrications obviously...

ESU is actually a well known entity. It's an interesting concept, and not as flawed as some would like to believe. ESU trucks are going to be on the road and likely in the area. The (well documented) issue in NYC is lack of well defined responsibility and significant service overlap leading to turf wars. While I tend to agree with actually go farther than Linuss and think that all rescue is a patient focused activity and needs to be medicine centered, the reality is I don't care who does rescue as ling as is defined beforehand and they're well trained.

Heck there's a city here that has separate fire, PD, EMS and rescue.

 

[Shishkabob]

And I'll reiterate:

There is no reason why EMS cannot be taught extrication in school, ambulances equipped with basic hydraulic tools, and safety gear put on.


Some agencies do it already, so if you're saying it can't be done, you're wrong.

 

[Shishkabob]

While I tend to agree with actually go farther than Linuss and think that all rescue is a patient focused activity and needs to be medicine centered, the reality is I don't care who does rescue as ling as is defined beforehand and they're well trained.

As long as I have veto power, as it IS my patient, I don't care who does the actual cutting.



The patient is ultimately my responsibility, therefor if it has to do with their health, it will go through me. Luckily in my area, the VFDs ask us how we'd like to extricate the patient.

 

[usalsfyre]

"you want us to do extrication, well then I better be getting a nice pay raise"

Interestingly enough, the entire world is not tied into the IAFF/AFL-CIO philosophy of "you gotta pay me more money to do anything extra".

 

[JPINFV]

Linuss, this "ERU" is a group that has unknown training, unknown certification and unknown skill. The FD, however, has well known training, well known certification and well known skill.

If I needed someone to pull me from under a car I would want the FD to do it.

Do you, personally, know what the certification, training, and skill level of FDNY, or are you assuming that because they are fire fighters they obviously have it?

 

[bstone]

Do you, personally, know what the certification, training, and skill level of FDNY, or are you assuming that because they are fire fighters they obviously have it?

Got quite a few friends in FDNY. They are all FF2s. A few are FF3s. I'll call one of them and ask what other training they have with regards to extraction, ropes, etc.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Just more excuses, really. There's not a single reason why EMS cannot / should not do basic extrication.



Fire is essentially a big wasteful sink anyhow. Why not divert the funds from them to EMS? We do more work anyhow , and they do the little side-gigs that are hardly ever done but use to justify their budgets...

How do we do more work then fire does? Please enlighten me. Last time I checked we respond to medical emergencies (medical and trauma) and that's pretty much about it. Where as fire responds to Fires of all types, HAZMAT, MVC, flooding (sand bag operations), and medical emergencies (in alot of areas). That's all I think of at the moment.

So it seems to me as if fire does more work. (I'm not bashing on Fire or EMS)

 

[usalsfyre]

Got quite a few friends in FDNY. They are all FF2s. A few are FF3s. I'll call one of them and ask what other training they have with regards to extraction, ropes, etc.

Which is flawed reasoning in and of itself, because NFPA standards only acknowledge FF I and FF II (NFPA 1001). Further, fire academy extrication training is VERY basic in many cases. NFPA has separate standards for vehicle rescue technician.

 

[JPINFV]

Got quite a few friends in FDNY. They are all FF2s. A few are FF3s. I'll call one of them and ask what other training they have with regards to extraction, ropes, etc.

Ah, so you made a comment about the standards of one agency vs the standards of another saying that one is well known simply because you know a few in it, vs the other which is unknown simply because you don't know anyone in the agency?

So basically, the certification, training, and skill levels of both agencies aren't well known enough to make an actual comparison.

 

[bstone]

fire academy extrication training is VERY basic in many cases. NFPA has separate standards for vehicle rescue technician.

Like I said, I will call to ask what their training is. It's a valid question and I am seeking the answer.

 

[usalsfyre]

How do we do more work then fire does? Please enlighten me. Last time I checked we respond to medical emergencies (medical and trauma) and that's pretty much about it. Where as fire responds to Fires of all types, HAZMAT, MVC, flooding (sand bag operations), and medical emergencies (in alot of areas). That's all I think of at the moment.

So it seems to me as if fire does more work. (I'm not bashing on Fire or EMS)

Most cities fire workload is about 20% of EMS workload. How many fires realistically are there? How many HazMats?

 

[Shishkabob]

How do we do more work then fire does? Please enlighten me. Last time I checked we respond to medical emergencies (medical and trauma) and that's pretty much about it. Where as fire responds to Fires of all types, HAZMAT, MVC, flooding (sand bag operations), and medical emergencies (in alot of areas). That's all I think of at the moment.

So it seems to me as if fire does more work. (I'm not bashing on Fire or EMS)

You're confusing "types of things done" for "calls done". Yes, they can "do" HAZMAT, but honestly, how many times does your average sized agency do that?

And honestly, each and every item you posted there, EMS will go to as well. HAZMAT spill? EMS is there. MVC? EMS is there. Fire? EMS is there. Yet, I don't have fire show up on a huge portion of my medical calls.




Sorry, it's a well documented statistic that EMS is a bigger portion of 911 calls than fire-related calls.. by a huge margin.