Why is THIS answer right?

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jerellem

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3. Your unit has been called to an unconscious patient lying on the side of a rural road. The reporting party was a passing motorist who called, stating that there were 3 or 4 other people who appeared to be attending the person. Your unit arrives to find an elderly female lying on her left side and a group of what appears to be family members standing around her. You kneel to take her pulse when one of the men says "Our religion does not permit outside medical attention. We will take care of her." What would be the best choice of action?



Your Answer: Move to a safe distance from the scene and call for law enforcement backup so you can treat the woman

Incorrect



Correct Answer is: Express your concern for the woman and make an attempt to convince them that you can provide a higher level of care than they can



So you mean to tell me that if I see some people standing around an unresponsive pt I can assume they're family and not ask them for ID and if they tell me not to treat a pt whom cannot speak for themselves then I can't treat them? What if they have evil intentions such as letting her die for insurance money or something. BTW, my questions come from emt-national-training.com I paid for a month of studying and they have like 3000 questions and some seem to be wrong to me so I ask the experts. ;)
 
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jerellem said:
You kneel to take her pulse when one of the men says "Our religion does not permit outside medical attention. We will take care of her." What would be the best choice of action?
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ok, is your life in danger? have they threatened your life? so what makes it an unsafe scene? so what would calling for PD and retreating to a safe distance do, other than end any chances at all of resuscitating the patient?

if you stay there, maybe they will let you treat the patient. maybe, maybe not, but at least you are trying.

now, if one of the bystanders is holding a shot gun, and says "you won't touch her or else I am going to shoot you" then it becomes a scene safety issue.
 
It's not a scene safety issue yet. It's easier to catch flies with honey, so start off by trying to "convince them" to let you treat her. If they continue to interfere, then it would be appropriate to contact law enforcement. Now the situation becomes much more dicier if one of them is a relative, especially if a power of attorney:health care is in force, provided that the patient actually is unconscious.
 
jerellem said:
3. You kneel to take her pulse when one of the men says "Our religion does not permit outside medical attention. We will take care of her." What would be the best choice of action?
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"I'm sorry but since I am on the scene I am obligated to assess this person. I will go about my job without wasting time and if you interfere, I will have the Police come to protect me while I do my job."

"If life-saving treatment is necessary, I will begin to set up for it and unless you can show you have the legal authority to prevent my taking action in the meantime, I will do what I've been trained to do. If there is no need for immediate intervention, I will confer with you."

"I will not say this twice or argue with you. We can talk after my assessment (or I will call the Police)."

I know this is about a test, but you know how vital they are for real life.
 
I would try to persuade them to help but if they absolutely refuse I guess we could try the Police but legally we must follow as they wish here
 
"Follow as they wish"???

Nothing has been proven. What is fact here is an adult woman lies on the ground unconscious. This woman is surrounded by people who APPEAR to be family but have shown no legal documentation other than their words.

And remember this...just because it is THEIR religion, does not mean it is HER religion.

So until she is awake and coherent or until legal papers are presented and IDs confirmed, it is your duty to convince them to allow you to examine her by expressing concerns. The next step would then be to get legal involved (cops).
 
akflightmedic said:
Nothing has been proven. What is fact here is an adult woman lies on the ground unconscious. This woman is surrounded by people who APPEAR to be family but have shown no legal documentation other than their words.

And remember this...just because it is THEIR religion, does not mean it is HER religion.

So until she is awake and coherent or until legal papers are presented and IDs confirmed, it is your duty to convince them to allow you to examine her by expressing concerns. The next step would then be to get legal involved (cops).
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Obviously the parents who do not want thier child treated by the ambos are not "acting in the child's best interest" so we can call the cops; what do we do in the meantime? could start to treat the patient and run the risk of creating a personal safety risk, crews here have been attacked by families when they were told by the Ambulance Officers' nana wasn't coming back. In the most extreme examples this involves the crews being swung at by a guy with an axe and another who had thier vehicle taken to with some 4x2.

I am not legally entitled to challenge thier decision at the end of the day; the Police can try to persuade the family into allowing the child to be treated but to my knoweldge they cannot force them to let her be treated.

Of course I would try my hardest to try to persuade them into allowing her to be treated. Legally speaking if they say no and we DO treat her I think we are acting illegally.
 
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When did this turn into a child and parent situation?

We are talking about an elderly female unconscious.
 
Do we legally have to follow them? Not unless they're the pt's POA, etc. I agree with Flightmedic

To be honest, until I see some type of legal documentation I will kindly respect the bystanders opinion (as an idea); but as the pt's advocate I would push hard to convince them to let me assess and treat. If they attempt to physically bar me from the pt that I have been dispatched too, I would definitely bring PD into the mix. To be honest for all I know, these people standing around her, fed her some poison and are just making sure she really passes. (extreme I know, but let's face it, in this business you see it all)
 
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akflightmedic said:
When did this turn into a child and parent situation?

We are talking about an elderly female unconscious.
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Since its 4am and I must have missed that in my stuporous gaze.

The reality is all I can do is try, if they refuse I can see if the Police can persuade them but at the end of the day we do not have the right to insist upon treatment.

I do love these posts, they turn into complex wranglings of the ins and outs of each poster's specific jurisdictional arrangements :P
 
I'm with the majority here...unless the actual patient wakes up and expresses the same idea, or someone around her can miraculously preset a POA, I'm treatin' her UNTIL it becomes a scene safety issue.
 
Treat or not?

I would fall back on the rules of implied or informed consent untill I was shown proper POA documentation. And maybe have LEO in route for what may happen later.
that is just me... IMPLIED CONSENT all the way untill I see papers.
 
Are you trained or do you know enough to recognize and authenticate proper POA paperwork? :) Just asking...I mean since we are on side of road and all..
 
paperwork

I would have to assume that if there was some sort of paperwork. that it would
be authentic, only going on the hunch that generally on the roadside there aren't fake documents. does that make sense?
with that said. I would still treat on implied consent and err on the side of pt. care. And yes, I would have LEO around to back me up on a decision like that.

P.S. is there paperwork authentication training?
all we get is here is that it better be yellow with signatures <DNR>
 
Which is exactly my point...all I was trained on was DNR papers...

So if someone had papers, WHY are they carrying them first of all??? Seems rather convenient no?
 
....wouldn't that revert back to implied consent? I'm treatin' her...unless a gun shows up outta nowhere.
 
MDewell,
I was born and raised in Oklahoma.. I know the possibility of a gun showing up. have seen a few there on calls..:)

AK, florida? yeah the DNR stuff is specific and yet vague...

still, Implied consent.
 
akflightmedic said:
Which is exactly my point...all I was trained on was DNR papers...

So if someone had papers, WHY are they carrying them first of all??? Seems rather convenient no?
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Actually if a patient has a history of medical problems it is not uncommon for the family to travel with the documentation showing that they have the power of attorney so they can prove they are the person that can legally make all medical decisions for the patient. We did this with a relative that had a history and saved many a headache for us as we knew what they wanted and needed.
 
medic417 said:
Actually if a patient has a history of medical problems it is not uncommon for the family to travel with the documentation showing that they have the power of attorney so they can prove they are the person that can legally make all medical decisions for the patient. We did this with a relative that had a history and saved many a headache for us as we knew what they wanted and needed.
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But you don't know if she does or not...your treating an unresponsive older female.
 
MDewell said:
But you don't know if she does or not...your treating an unresponsive older female.
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Which is convenient when it comes to POAs because a patient that is alert, orientated, and competent can over rule a POA at any time and for what ever reason. If a patient can make their own decisions, then you shouldn't be taking orders from a POA to begin with.
 
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