Trying to Grasp Something

[Cory]

So, as the title implies, I just can't seem to wrap my head around something. On this forum, I've seen many who claim that Fire Departments are taking EMS by storm. This seems odd to me, because in my area, 911-EMS is only run by FD's. And anyway, I know for a fact many FD employed EMT's and Paramedics make much more than those who are employed with private or hospital agencies. So why the hostility towards the FD's? To me, it seems only natural that EMS is staffed with the FD, because thats all I've ever known. And I don't mean volunteer FD's (the problem there is pretty obvious, even to me)

Furthermore, where do unions genrally fit into EMS? It seems odd to see so many EMS workers not employed through unions if they exist and are avilable, as that is pretty uncommon in most professions to just ignore the union.

My father owns and runs a non-union stage production (stage, lighting, sound) company and has been fighting the local stage hand unions for his entire career. But I'm also not so narrow minded and cynical that I think
the union is constantly cheating me. I know the importance. So why is it so heavily avoided in EMS?

 

[CAOX3]

This has the potential of heating up...

My opinion is I dont like blanket statements. Im of the opinion there is more then one way to do something. What ever suits your community the best fire, private or third service. Im not for or against any.

As far as unions I am represented by one and I think they have made tremendous strides to better the working conditions of the bargaining unit, that may not be the case everywhere.

You have to be able to look at things on a case by case basis and not throw out statements such as "fire based EMS sucks", "private EMS sucks" or "unions suck". EMS is fragmented and I thinks its best to judge based on merit not by what color truck you show up in.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

Oh boy, I think you just opened a can of worms

Its a real hot topic here and many on the forum are not so big on fire based EMS. Especially dual roll fire fighter Paramedics.

To be honest I am stuck in the middle. I am honestly a fan of 3rd party municipal services such as a county EMS system. But if you gave me the choice between Fire based EMS and Private, as an employee I am going to have to say Fire. I know the pay and benefits are generally much better. You also normaly have a union. A lot of people here do not like unions also, but I am not sure how many of them have worked for a private EMS agency with no union, having to beg for basic supplies, employee's being treated like complete crap, people being fired for trying to start a union or even talking about it.
One problem with Fire based EMS is that you are now the red headed step child of the fire department. It seems that often you are there to bring money to the fire department and also help keep the fire fighters job sense in most areas %80 of there calls are not fire suppression.
Dual roll guys often are more motivated about the fire service than EMS and just use the paramedic certification to get hired on or for promotion

So like I said I really like the idea of 3rd party municipal service, maybe hospital based service(I am not to familiar with those) But if I had to choose bewteen AMR and the Fire Department.... its a no brainier as an employee, clearly the fire department.

 

[MrBrown]

I would find another line of work before I ever thought of being an Ambulance Officer without the union;

 

[mcdonl]

Rural vs Urban....

Does where you live make a difference? In my area, rural... towns of 4000-8000 people the guys who are just fire only come out on fire calls. Us on the EMS side pretty much maintain the station, all of the equipment and have regular meetings and trainings. The fire guys do not mind at all. We are all state certified firefighters too, but there are I would say 50 EMS calls for every 1 fire call (1055, fires, etc....)

 

[Sassafras]

I would never apply for a unit that requires fire response. I don't like fires. I won't go into hot buildings. Hell, I won't go into a sauna I don't like hot things. LOL. Will I show up on scene at a fire? Yes, but far enough away that I don't get burnt. I'm a chicken. I admit.

 

[firecoins]

FD EMS is suseptable to using money generated by EMS to finance Fire Suppression often leaving EMS with shoddy equipment. FDNY has a separte EMS division but this is exactly what happens. EMS does not run the show, the fire fighters do even though EMS represnets 70% of the calls.

 

[medic417]

EMS is often the step child of fire. Many fire fighters have no desire to do patient care but are forced to to keep a job, to get promotions, etc. Thus patient care can suffer. At the same time people that want to do patient care are forced to become firefighters. Honestly this can create dangerous situations.

As to unions. I am old enough to have seen when they did good, but I also have seen them destroy companies, cities, etc. I have seen them help and harm workers. For the most part in my opinion they are no longer needed at least as they are currently designed.

 

[46Young]

It's certainly not a coincedence that unionized fire based employees, be it fire only, dual role, or EMS only are compensated at a higher rate than single role non fire depts. I've also noticed that fire based salaries drop off dramatically on the east coast as you get down into the Carolinas where there are a good many depts that are not union. There are many FD's that dropped the IAFF and their employees make 8 bucks an hour, and maybe make 40k after 10 years if they're lucky. In the Charleston area alone, the North Charleston FD starts at 22k, Awendaw at 8/hr, Mt Pleasant starts firemedics at around 30-33k, the same as Charleston City FF's. I made double that right out of the academy, in an area with a comparable cost of living.

Sure, there are non union private, hospital based and muni non fire employers that pay better than union FD's. But realize that the FD employees enjoy a better retirement, career advancement, and have the poewr to influence company policy instead of having to agree with whatever management decides. Look at FDNY and FDNY EMS. I was making in the low 60's as a medic. 401k retirement, frequent schedule changes, no job security, little opportunity for career advancement, no collective bargaining, no cfivil service, and the ever present threat that the hospital may close.

FDNY medics take five years to top out at 60k, and start in the mid 30's. Same for fire, but they top in the upper 60's. A medic at my old hospital tops out after two years. The difference is that city employees have lifelong medical, a pension, collective bargaining, job security, etc.

It's well known in NYC that if you want money and a good schedule, you go to the hospitals. If you want benefits and retirement, you work EMS for FDNY. Realize that prior to gaining uniform status and a real union, they had an expired contract (for years, so salaries were unchanged the whole time)where EMT's started at 25k and topped at 38k. Medics 30k to 50k.

Edit: I'm sure that there are a few depts that pay well, better than the union FD's, but these are statistical outliers.

 

[46Young]

Also, I hear reference of union lockouts, strong arm tactics, etc. In public safety, how is this possible? We can't strike. It's unlawful. We have arbitration. If we disagree on a contract, we still come to work. We give selfless public service prime importance, so we would never consider work slowdowns or sick outs. With the IAFF quoting public safety and saving lives, a sick out or slowdown would certainly go against that ideology, no?

 

[medic417]

Also, I hear reference of union lockouts, strong arm tactics, etc. In public safety, how is this possible? We can't strike. It's unlawful. We have arbitration. If we disagree on a contract, we still come to work. We give selfless public service prime importance, so we would never consider work slowdowns or sick outs. With the IAFF quoting public safety and saving lives, a sick out or slowdown would certainly go against that ideology, no?

UMMM yeah. That's why you have spoken of work slow downs, sick calls, etc. in previous threads here and on other sites. And what is funny your IAFF has some very famous double talks. Look at their stance on being taken over or joining law enforcement. They state it would be detrimental as people could not do so very different jobs properly. Yet they speak out the other side of their mouth when they try to take over EMS. Also why the fight to keep education standards low by IAFF. If the best interests of the public were put first they should be lobbying harder than any of us for higher education requirements.

 

[46Young]

UMMM yeah. That's why you have spoken of work slow downs, sick calls, etc. in previous threads here and on other sites. And what is funny your IAFF has some very famous double talks. Look at their stance on being taken over or joining law enforcement. They state it would be detrimental as people could not do so very different jobs properly. Yet they speak out the other side of their mouth when they try to take over EMS. Also why the fight to keep education standards low by IAFF. If the best interests of the public were put first they should be lobbying harder than any of us for higher education requirements.

I was responding to those in EMS only agencies regarding work slowdowns and such. I haven't heard of any fire unions doing this as of yet.

My union is concerned about adequate fire protection as well as adequate EMS services. They are also concerned about jobs, membership, and money. These are not mutually exclusive. Why would we not oppose a merger with police, or even a takeover by them? Absorbing EMS has also worked quite well regarding job security and the creation of additional paid positions in these depts, as well as the cost savings with staffing. I don't agree with a takeover if the dept has no intention of funding, staffing, equipping, and deploying EMS properly. Regardless, there's no disputing that it's a wise business decision for the dept and the union to do this. It's darwinism, I suppose.

Regarding education, the fire service has shown an increasing trend of either requiring a degree for promotion, or at least giving significant weight towards education for promotion. This has caused myself and other paramedics to work on completing our EMS degrees, or even have one going in, since it will have direct benefit in regards to career advancement.

How many EMS agencies do this? We even send our interested incumbents to medic school through a local EMS AAS program. General IAFF policies aren't always followed by the locals. How many EMS agencies are putting their employees through a degree program on their dime? Hardly any, I'm sure.

Furthermore, since you're accusing the IAFF of depressing EMS educational standards, then you need to include the vast majority of non-fire based EMS as well. What do I mean? How many employers (outside of Oregon) require EMS degrees as a condition of employment? How many give preference in hiring to those with degrees? Ususally, experience will trump a degree in most places. I've never had an employer ask where I went to school. Most employers just want to know if your cert is valid, if you have a pulse, and how much experience you have. I don't see any sizeable push by non fire based EMS employers pushing for degrees. It would seem that it's in their best interests to keep standards low, so that the abundant supply of cheap, easily replaceable labor will continue to be there,

If I've decided on a profession that I intend to work at until retirement, then I'm going to go where the best pay, job security, benefits, working conditions, career advancement, and retirement are. The union employers, overwhelmingly fire based at that, have consistently shown that they provide these things, where the balance of the industry typically does not, on average. The few that do seem prohibitively difficult to get in to. I have no intention of cheating myself out of a comfortable standard of living just to make a political statement against fire based EMS or unions.

 

[Cory]

Well, I don't know a whole lot about the union system in my area, but what I can say is that the Cincinnati laid off an enormous amount of Fire EMS workers last year...which I thought was what the union exists to prevent? So, I'm guessing that the union doesn't have much power here? And I feel like I'm going to get a "well, in a perfect world..." speech. Does anyone know anything about Cincinnati's EMS unions?

I've also been told by many that the state of EMS will greatly improve soon, seeing as it's a newer profession. But that doesn't seem to happening (not that I'm asking anyone to predict the future) A few people have told me that going into EMS now is like going into environmental science or green technology, it is surely going to pay off soon, but I'm not too sure. It seems as if there is too much confusion, and separation from worker and establishment for this industry to suddely improve...

 

[medic417]

Well, I don't know a whole lot about the union system in my area, but what I can say is that the Cincinnati laid off an enormous amount of Fire EMS workers last year...which I thought was what the union exists to prevent? So, I'm guessing that the union doesn't have much power here? And I feel like I'm going to get a "well, in a perfect world..." speech. Does anyone know anything about Cincinnati's EMS unions?

I've also been told by many that the state of EMS will greatly improve soon, seeing as it's a newer profession. But that doesn't seem to happening (not that I'm asking anyone to predict the future) A few people have told me that going into EMS now is like going into environmental science or green technology, it is surely going to pay off soon, but I'm not too sure. It seems as if there is too much confusion, and separation from worker and establishment for this industry to suddely improve...

Sorry you have been lied to. EMS is older than many health care professions. With all the in fighting and opposition to change EMS will not become a quality well paying profession any time soon. Best you can hope for is a non fire better than union paying job with better than union job benefits. Still won't be much as union fire services don't pay near as good as some claim. Yes there are rare exceptions.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

Still won't be much as union fire services don't pay near as good as some claim. Yes there are rare exceptions.

Are you honestly telling me that AMR or Rural Metro pays better and gives better benefits than the paid union paramedics working for the fire department in the same area?

 

[medic417]

Are you honestly telling me that AMR or Rural Metro pays better and gives better benefits than the paid union paramedics working for the fire department in the same area?

Never said that. In fact there pay is way to low for me. But in reality they make as much as many union shops. Unions are not a guarantee of big wages and benefits. Nor do the keep you your job.

 

[46Young]

Never said that. In fact there pay is way to low for me. But in reality they make as much as many union shops. Unions are not a guarantee of big wages and benefits. Nor do the keep you your job.

Pay isn't the only factor to consider when choosing which dept or agency to pursue for employment. Many companies will offer a rather generous starting salary. Be cautious, as this may be a distractor as they may not offer much else, and it may also be an attempt to draw attention away from many undesireable features of the company. Also, their pay progression past that entrance salary may be poor. Always be wary of the company that offers a generous salary to start, along with sign-on bonuses, relocation bonuses, etc. If they were a highly desireable employer, they wouldn't need to offer those extras to attract applicants.

A growing trend in the fire service, typically union ones, is to use the starting salary and pay progression to negotiate a more generous top salary and longevity steps. The probie is paid fairly low, and the pay progression is typically modest, until the latter end of the pay steps, where the employee gets a huge bump. FDNY, FDNY EMS, and the NYPD do this. Most employees will leave a job in the first five years. You reach your top salary in five years at FDNY and the NYPD. No sense in giving generous compensation to employees that are going to jump to another dept. The lower starting salary allows the tenured employees to enjoy a much higher top salary and longevity steps.

Retirement and benefits are arguably more important than salary. Things you want to know are what's my retirement multiplier and requisite years of service? Is there a DROP? What's my medical plan? What are my premiums? How does my medical plan change post retirement? What's my work schedule? Mandatory OT? What is the paid time off/leave policy? What's the promotional process? What is the dept's policy regarding discipline? From what I've seen, union depts tend to have more desireable answers to these questions than non union ones, on the average. At the least, with collective bargaining, these provisions are guaranteed by contract. Without one, the dept that you work for can change any number of those provisions at their discretion, based on the needs of the dept. What is currently a great employment package can be easily changed for the worse without a labor contract in place.

Also consider that many unions in the deep south are not true unions, as they currently lack collective bargaining. My union falls under this category. We're fortunate to be in an affluent area and also have a large membership, so our political influence has successfully replaced the lack of collective bargaining. These depts in the deep south, in right to work states, lack our resources, so they may in fact pay less than your employer. They're not true unions, after all. My former EMS employer paid 38k to 68k for medics, where the typical FD paid 25k to 45k. If we're talking about unions without collective bargaining, this pay disparity proves nothing.

Edit: There is also the possibility that the private company will lose the contract and leave you unemployed. The third service agency can also be taken over by a FD, or dissolved and instead be run by a private provider. With the healthcare reform, if more txp's become reimburseable, then these privates will be aggressively looking to take over EMS anywhere that they can.