?Stroke/AMI/PE/Sepsis/I don't know.

Melclin

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15:34 56yrs Male: Doctor's request (<25mins) - ?Stroke.

O/A: You arrive to find a community care nurse at the door of a run down house.

She provides the following handover:

Alex G Bell is a 57 year old male with a newly placed stoma to whom the nurse has been sent to attend. On her arrival, the pt was complaining of tingling down his left arm and left leg. She called his doctor and he suggested she call the ambulance. She tried to get a blood pressure but had some considerable difficulty, saying she thinks it may be around 85 systolic with a pulse of about 80 but its very hard to palpate. He is a diabetic and his BSL is 5.6

O/E: You enter the house to find a slightly overweight and unkempt man in bed holding a colostomy bag against his stomach. He is alert and oriented and says that he has tingling in both legs and his left arm, and feels nauseated. Pt was discharged from hospital on the previous day after having had a portion of bowel removed due to cancer. He had gone to the toilet in the AM of this current day (~6am) and it, “felt like he was walking on blistered feet”, at which time his tingling sensation started. He had expressed these symptoms to the home care nurse who had activated the ambulance (slightly before the above time). The pt is mildly anxious.

Vitals:
SpO2: unrecordable.
Monitored in Sinus Tach of ~200 (although it does appear that the machine is registering a T-wave as a QRS. Pulse matches the QRS rate).
BP: 90/P
Pulse: 98
Temp: 36.0 (both ears)
Resp rate: 22
BSL: 5.0

Medical Hx:
Type 2 diabetes, hypercholesterolaemia, bowel cancer, post-op bowel resection (14 days previous), pulmonary embolus (a “day or two” before being discharged, they “didn’t give me any drugs or nothing” for the PE). No meds are listed in the PCR although I seem to remember Oxycodone being present. This is probably a hole in the scenario (I didn't run the job and am working from PCR and what I picked up from assisting) but I don’t think meds have anything to do with the outcome.

Physical:

Breath sounds clear and equal bilaterally.
Lower arms, hands and finger are ice cold to touch and have a cap refill of about 4+ seconds, but are pink. Fingernails show mild clubbing.
There are a number of old superficial scars scattered around his chest and arms.

There is a recent surgical wound on his abdomen, slightly to the right of mid line, consistent with his colostomy. The wound appears quite healthy. It is surprisingly well healed, undressed and well perfused.

Both legs are extremely cold to touch and pale with very noticeable cyanosis in the toe nail beds. Very mild pitting oedema is also present in both legs.

After loading:
Once in the ambulance the patient quite suddenly starts to sweat profusely (You could actually see the drips of sweat forming in seconds from nowhere) and states that he “feels like S**t” and is mildly short of breath (reports SOB after prompting for “any problems with your breathing”).


There are three parts to this scenario. This is the first; with the prehospital findings; the second will involve ED findings, firstly with 12-lead and then labs; and the third will involve something else...GO!
 

Aidey

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AAA

Why the heck won't it keep it capitalized?

Edit: Of course now it works.
 
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Melclin

Melclin

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I don't recall ever having considered AAA. He was, after all, in hospital for at least 14 days with, presumably, pretty close monitoring of his abdomen. Given the subsequent PE, one would expect multiple CxRs and/or CTs up to the day previous to this presentation. He was discharged the day previous to the day of presentation. I'm no expert on AAAs, but it seems like an unusual situation in which to sustain one...
 

Aidey

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It could also be a dissection of aorta, which if I was actually awake I probably would have said first. It is symptom based guess.

Tachycardic, hypotensive, signs of shock, bilateral lower extremity swelling, hypoperfusion and an unusual sensation in his extremities.
 

jrm818

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I'll take a whack at this one.

I also hadn't thought of dissection/AAA, but now wish I had....I think the lack of pain is why they didn't leap out at me. I guess that isn't the answer since Meclin was surprised, but without knowing that, the idea makes sense to me.

The differentials in the title were my first thoughts, but the presentation doesn't seem quite right for any of them (and what fun is a scenario with the answer in the title). I'd add non-AMI flavors of heart failure to the list.

Questions:

Does he have pedal pulses?

How do his lung sounds after his onset of SOB. Vitals now?

Any chance of getting a look a the EKG? 12-lead? I'm a bit confused about what you saw - Am I correct in thinking he had P's and QRS's each at a rate of 200 with only ~1/2 of the QRS's producing a palpable pulse?

How has his urine output been (are his kidney's intact)?
Is is normal for him to have to wake up at 6AM? (If I were an unkempt overweight healing post-colostomy patient I think I'd consider that still nap-time. In fact, I'm none of those things, and I still dislike being woken up that early....),

Other than the tingling, how is he neurologically?

When do we get to find out all the exciting ED findings? I can't wait for the surprise....
 

Veneficus

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OK, let's think about it.

15:34 56yrs Male: Doctor's request (<25mins) - ?Stroke.

O/A: You arrive to find a community care nurse at the door of a run down house.

She provides the following handover:

Alex G Bell is a 57 year old male with a newly placed stoma to whom the nurse has been sent to attend. On her arrival, the pt was complaining of tingling down his left arm and left leg. She called his doctor and he suggested she call the ambulance. She tried to get a blood pressure but had some considerable difficulty, saying she thinks it may be around 85 systolic with a pulse of about 80 but its very hard to palpate. He is a diabetic and his BSL is 5.6

How about mg/dl? (100.7) I really hate this mmol crap.

Moving on, his blood pressure sucks.

He is alert and oriented and says that he has tingling in both legs and his left arm, and feels nauseated.

Tingly, and not just because you showed up. ;)

Sounds almost like a nervous disorder. In an electrolyte sort of way.

Pt was discharged from hospital on the previous day after having had a portion of bowel removed due to cancer.

What kind of cancer? adenocarcinoma perhaps? Or was it a metastasis of another?

SpO2: unrecordable.

Not surprising.

Monitored in Sinus Tach of ~200 (although it does appear that the machine is registering a T-wave as a QRS.

In a tall peaked T wave sort of way? Hyper K+ ?

So was the pulse 200 or did it match the rate that doesn't count the t wave as a qrs?


While the obvious answer would be a bleed or a fistula, I am thinking it may have more to do with the cardiac contractility.

Medical Hx:
Type 2 diabetes,

Is this controlled with insulin, or oral meds? It doesn't sound like it is by diet.

hypercholesterolaemia, bowel cancer, post-op bowel resection (14 days previous), pulmonary embolus (a “day or two” before being discharged, they “didn’t give me any drugs or nothing” for the PE).

Wasn't given anything at home or in the hospital? Heparin or the like would make that rather important in terms of medical/surgical bleeding.


No meds are listed in the PCR although I seem to remember Oxycodone being present.).

This might not help the blood pressure either. especially with the potential effects of renal failure.

This is probably a hole in the scenario (I didn't run the job and am working from PCR and what I picked up from assisting) but I don’t think meds have anything to do with the outcome.

We'll just say nobody knows. :)

Lower arms, hands and finger are ice cold to touch and have a cap refill of about 4+ seconds, but are pink. Fingernails show mild clubbing.

Clubbing is a sign of prolonged hypoxia, possibly from various vascular complications of diabetis, COPD, chronic heart insufficency of some type, etc. unless you are very subtly trying to point out a raynaud's phenomenon, which would add a list of autoimmunity to the differential.

There are a number of old superficial scars scattered around his chest and arms.

as in not surgical scars?

There is a recent surgical wound on his abdomen, slightly to the right of mid line, consistent with his colostomy. The wound appears quite healthy. It is surprisingly well healed, undressed and well perfused.

doesn't exactly scream systemic infection, but there could be a local subdural leakage causing a peritonitis, but I really don't think that is the most pressing problem right now.

Both legs are extremely cold to touch and pale with very noticeable cyanosis in the toe nail beds. Very mild pitting oedema is also present in both legs.

peripheral cyanosis, not alarming in this guy with heart insufficency, clubbing, diabetes, and recent surgery. However, With his low BP, recent surgery and renal complications there of, potential for vascular disease, and possibly thrombosis/embolis, I would be very worried about his kidney function.

After loading:
Once in the ambulance the patient quite suddenly starts to sweat profusely (You could actually see the drips of sweat forming in seconds from nowhere) and states that he “feels like S**t” and is mildly short of breath (reports SOB after prompting for “any problems with your breathing”).

Is he laying down or sitting up? What are his breath sounds? Is he developing central cyanosis? Feel like he can't take a deep enough breath? There exists the potential for yet another PE.

There are three parts to this scenario. This is the first; with the prehospital findings; the second will involve ED findings, firstly with 12-lead and then labs; and the third will involve something else...GO!

I am guessing the third part is surgery, ICU, or pathology. :)

There is a lot that could be wrong here. From a host of surgical complications of PE, renal failure, bleeding, etc, as well as several long term pathologies, I am going to have to say there is not enough info yet to make any definitive decisions.
 
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Melclin

Melclin

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Does he have pedal pulses?

He does. The are surprisingly strong.

How do his lung sounds after his onset of SOB. Vitals now?

I'll post them bellow after the questions.

Any chance of getting a look a the EKG? 12-lead? I'm a bit confused about what you saw - Am I correct in thinking he had P's and QRS's each at a rate of 200 with only ~1/2 of the QRS's producing a palpable pulse?

I did have strip for you, unfortunately that day was rather busy and I've neglected to lable two strips, both sinus tach, so I can't actually remember which one is which...my bad. I have 12 lead results from ED but alas I was not allowed to steal pt records (although I gave it a good ol' fashioned try). The monitor was registering around 200, however the rate as manually counted on the strip and palpated radial pulse was generally about half that.


How has his urine output been (are his kidney's intact)?
Is is normal for him to have to wake up at 6AM? (If I were an unkempt overweight healing post-colostomy patient I think I'd consider that still nap-time. In fact, I'm none of those things, and I still dislike being woken up that early....),

He woke up at 6am for a wee. It was walking back from that when he first noticed the chief complaint. He had a bad night pain wise.

Other than the tingling, how is he neurologically?

No motor or neuro deficits were noticed. He still had sensation in the affected areas.

When do we get to find out all the exciting ED findings? I can't wait for the surprise....

When a few more people weigh in.

Veneficus;255524 [B said:
How about mg/dl? (100.7) I really hate this mmol crap. [/B]

Then you're gonna hate it when the bloods come back ;)


What kind of cancer? adenocarcinoma perhaps? Or was it a metastasis of another?

Not sure, but it was primary bowel cancer.

Not surprising.

Nope. Frustratingly though, I'd left my Rapid lab in my other overalls - so no ABGs.


In a tall peaked T wave sort of way? Hyper K+ ?

Doctor house in the house. The t-waves on our monitor were unremarkable, but our monitor has the notable disadvantage of being s**t. The ED ecg showed peaked t-waves and were promptly named as the culprit.

So was the pulse 200 or did it match the rate that doesn't count the t wave as a qrs?

Yep


Is this controlled with insulin, or oral meds? It doesn't sound like it is by diet.

Oral meds. I've just had the strangest and most convenient memory flash when reading heparin bellow. Its of an image of Mr Bell's medication list. He was on cadesartan, oxycodone 5mg x 4 daily, warfarin, metaformin, and there was one more that I wasn't familiar with.

Wasn't given anything at home or in the hospital? Heparin or the like would make that rather important in terms of medical/surgical bleeding.

He had a PE a day or two before discharge. He was quite adamant that they hadn't done anything for it and it went away by itself, but he wasn't the quickest of cats.


unless you are very subtly trying to point out a raynaud's phenomenon, which would add a list of autoimmunity to the differential.


No, it was just my observation.

as in not surgical scars?

Yeah they were very superficial and haphazard. Like he'd had a bath in barbed wire at some stage.


Is he laying down or sitting up? What are his breath sounds? Is he developing central cyanosis? Feel like he can't take a deep enough breath? There exists the potential for yet another PE.

He was in bed when we got to him. We had him semi-recumbent. No trouble breathing initially, see bellow for more info.


I am guessing the third part is surgery, ICU, or pathology. :)

I'd like to know more than I do about the outcome, but it was hard enough getting the follow up information I did.

When you load him into the ambulance and have a bit more of a play you notice the sudden, extensive diphoresis and he complains of SOB as mentioned.

BP : unrecordable
Pulse : 110 (weaker than before, barely palpable).
Chest is still clear and equal bilaterally.
GCS : 15
Pt is significantly more anxious than he was.
Denies chest pain or discomfort.
Now feels nauseated.

You eventually get access - Meds? fluids?
Transport decisions?
Ddx?
Thoughts?

I'll post the ED findings in a day or so.
 

Aidey

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I have to admit some confusion, hyperkalemia causes bradycardia, not tachycardia. Or is the tachycardia from something unrelated, like A-fib?
 

jrm818

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I feel totally outgunned here. I'm taking a shot more as a learning experience for me than anything.

Assuming there is actually hyperkalemia, I'd put stroke rather farther down the ddx list, and tend to be comfortable explaining the parathesia with the electrolyte issues for now. Makes me think a lot more about renal failure - that's why i was wondering about urine output (once we get into the ED - labs will be muchos helpful).

The circulatory/respiratory issue seems like the most acute issue at the moment. His history and assessment are pretty convincing for another PE, but with the apparent renal/electrolyte/cardiac issues, I'm at a loss as to how to create a more unified ddx list, (though I'm sure he has multiple ongoing pathologies, so maybe it isn't possible).

Obviously I'm thinking PE, Renal failure, he clearly has some cardiac issues and I'm not convinced they're all K+ related with only some peaked T-waves as the evidence, not sure AMI has been ruled out, bleed somewhere is possible, infection is possible but I"d say low probability guess, stroke is still possible, but again low prob. guess, I'm sure there's more but that's all that occurs to me.

With such uncertainty I'd be inclined towards rather conservative supportive treatment until we have some more information. Unfortunately, he seems to be heading in the direction of forcing some more aggressive treatment I'm not sure what that should be.

Very uncertain, If I were dumped in the field today with this patient I'd be a bit..uh...puckered at the moment...
 

Veneficus

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I have to admit some confusion, hyperkalemia causes bradycardia, not tachycardia.

usually.

I wasn't clear on what the rate was without the t wave or if large peaked twaves were being counted as QRS, which would articilly increase the rate on the monitor.
 
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Melclin

Melclin

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No one else wants to have a shot at an alert and oriented bloke, tachycardic with no blood pressure and some neuro deficits, sweating like a stockbroker?
 

Veneficus

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No one else wants to have a shot at an alert and oriented bloke, tachycardic with no blood pressure and some neuro deficits, sweating like a stockbroker?

sounds like his body is desperately trying to compensate from his lack of cardiac output.
 

Mobey

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Soo what does the 12 lead show?

I am confused on this HR thing. When you count the qrs's, is it 200/min? If so, cardiovert.

If not, lets correct his pressure to start with.
Bolus 1lt of fluid and start Dopamine 5mcg/kg/min increasing as necissary.

need another 12 lead.

Prolly a silent MI.

The extremeties are not perfused, that is why they feel tingly/ funny etc. Tingly is not a neuro deficit, it is a perfusion problem.

Also, would like a ETCo2.
 

Aidey

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Soo what does the 12 lead show?

I am confused on this HR thing. When you count the qrs's, is it 200/min? If so, cardiovert.

If not, lets correct his pressure to start with.
Bolus 1lt of fluid and start Dopamine 5mcg/kg/min increasing as necissary.

need another 12 lead.

Prolly a silent MI.

The extremeties are not perfused, that is why they feel tingly/ funny etc. Tingly is not a neuro deficit, it is a perfusion problem.

Also, would like a ETCo2.

Ok, there is a difference between the rate of the QRS on the EKG and the perfusing pulse. In this guy his perfusing pulse is a perfectly acceptable 80bpm, not something that calls for an urgent cardioversion.

Paresthesia can be a sign of a developing neuro deficit.
 

Mobey

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Ok, there is a difference between the rate of the QRS on the EKG and the perfusing pulse. In this guy his perfusing pulse is a perfectly acceptable 80bpm, not something that calls for an urgent cardioversion.

Paresthesia can be a sign of a developing neuro deficit.


Think about what your saying here.
It is perfectly acceptible to have a hr of 200, as long as only 80bpm are perfusing??
Is it OK to be in V-tach @ 180 as long as only every 2nd beat is perfusing?

Cardiac output is dependant partly on preload. With a heart rate this fast, the LV does not have enought time to fill, and supply blood with all 200 contractions to the body, so you can feel a pulse. Are you really telling me that is OK with you?

Step back for a minute and look at the clinical picture:
HR 200, anxious, nausea, hypotensive, impared perfusion to the extremeties.


Paresthesia is a sign of a developing neuro deficit in the traumatic injury pt, or a DD of accesory nerve disorder/injury. This guy has a perfusion problem, not a neuro problem.
 
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Melclin

Melclin

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ED findings

Sigh, Okay so in the original set of vital signs:

The HR counter on the monitor reads about 200.

However, you can clearly see from the distance between the QRS complexs displayed that it would have to be about half that.

When you print a strip and count the QRS complexes, it reads about half that.

What I'm saying is that the monitor is misinterpreting the information it has collected. Its registering a T-wave as being an additional QRS complex. Usually I would gloss over machines making mistakes, but this is relevant to the case. As vene correctly deduced (I though it would take a little longer :wacko: ), peaked T-waves would cause this and yes it was due to hyper-K.

So,

O/A at the ED

NIBP: 98/50
Manual Pulse: 120
ECG: SR, T-waves peaked in V2, V3 & II
SpO2: varying between 65 and 90 with an utterly dodgy pleth waveform, on 8LPM by simple face mask.
GCS:15

Nurse notes that his blood is clotting extremely quickly when she draws for labs. The middle three toes on each foot are now extremely pale, while the other two are relatively well perfused. The pt has stopped sweating. His face and chest are far more pale than when he presented.

When you follow up after an hour, bloods are back and an arterial line has been inserted. He has had a total:

-4L normal saline
-1L of gelofusine
-1mg of metaraminol

Art line BP is averaging around 80/40 and seems dependant on the manual rapid infusion of gelofusine by a trusty ICU registrar who is accompanying the array of various important looking doctors now bustling about.

Blood work:

Na+: 132mmol/L, K+: 6.7mmol/L, Ca+: 2.31 mmol/L, Albumin: 43 g/L, Lipase: 13.5, Ck: 47ng/dl, Troponin T: 0.01ng/dl?, Creatinine: 158 micromol/L Urea: 10.2 mmol/L, Haemoglobin: 16.5mg/dl, Glucose: 9 mmol/L, C-reactive protein: 4.9mg/L.

(Some of the units of measurement might be wrong, the lab results came without units which would be fine if it wasn't for the frustrating differences in the use of various units of measurement between the US and Aus).

With Glucose + Insulin is ordered.

A further 500mls of gelofusine is hung. BP, 5 minutely during the infusion of the third 500mls: 110/43, 110/49, 120/51. Pulse is consistently 110-120.

1L has been removed from his colostomy.

He is ready to go off to CT. What are you thinking now?
 

Aidey

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Think about what your saying here.
It is perfectly acceptible to have a hr of 200, as long as only 80bpm are perfusing??
Is it OK to be in V-tach @ 180 as long as only every 2nd beat is perfusing?

Cardiac output is dependant partly on preload. With a heart rate this fast, the LV does not have enought time to fill, and supply blood with all 200 contractions to the body, so you can feel a pulse. Are you really telling me that is OK with you?

Step back for a minute and look at the clinical picture:
HR 200, anxious, nausea, hypotensive, impared perfusion to the extremeties.


Paresthesia is a sign of a developing neuro deficit in the traumatic injury pt, or a DD of accesory nerve disorder/injury. This guy has a perfusion problem, not a neuro problem.

But the heart rate isnt 200, it is 80. As annoying as this saying is, treat the pt, not the monitor. If the pt has a "normal" pulse rate the other symptoms aren't likely to be caused by poor cardiac output from tachycardia, because the pts pulse isn't tachycardic.
 

Aidey

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Ok, to quote Vene, I really hate this mmol/l crap.

From what I can find it looks like mEq/l and mmol/l have the same normal ranges.

Ok, so labs are what I would expect in acuute kidney failure. Low Na, high K+, high creatanine, high urea. I wonder what his PT/INR is.
 
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Melclin

Melclin

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I wonder what his PT/INR is.

I had it written down. But its been obscured all the other hurried writing. I was just jotting these into a note pad as the nurse read them out. :wacko:

It wasn't abnormal and they weren't worried about it.

Effusion?? Seems reasonable to put it on the list.

I don't quite follow. Care to elaborate?
 
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