Special needs child with a seizure

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(I am in the middle of a EMR course, but I have current FA and ASHI CPR cert)

I was at a trampoline park today and saw a young boy collapse and go into grand-mal seizure. His father was there with him so I approached and told him I had CPR certification and asked if he needed any help. Turned out to be a special needs 13yo male, prior history of seizures "when he gets hot". His mother arrived with a small medical kit that included a rectal medication that was supposed to stop the seizure.

The father had rolled him into the recovery position, however as he was on a trampoline the weight of his body pressing on the center of the trampoline meant his face was actually upwards, not downwards. He was fully unconscious (had stopped seizing) but was still at risk of his airway being blocked by his tongue.

Knowing there was no trauma I used the head-tilt-chin-lift and listened closely for breathing. He has a good clear airway, breaths were about 60 (short, panting). Skin dry and warm, pulse 110 (mother said that was normal for him) and at this point was simply unconscious with no immediately apparent further risk. His mother said the medication would bring him around, would take a few minutes, and they would go home. She refused EMS stating this something they just have to deal with from time to time.

I suggested we move the kid to the rest areas off the trampoline where he would be in a better recovery position (and would be suitable for CPR if he got worse, but I didn't say that out loud).

We used a two-person side-lift (kid was 130lbs, his dad not much bigger!) and placed him on the floor of the rest area. His dad provided emotional support as the kid started to come around. I monitored his airway, breathing and pulse on a one minute cycle, his airway was patent at all times, his respiration rate to 40-50 per minute. His radial pulse was steady at 110. I got a little more history from his mother and pretty much came to the conclusion that is was a sort-of-not-unexpected result of him getting overheated. His dad had been fairly frantic to begin with but calmed down to my pace as the event went on. He asked if I was a medic, I told him I was still in training to be an EMR, and couldn't use any of my EMR training yet as I wasn't certified, but had my CPR card and that's all I needed for this situation.

The kid came round enough to be lifted into a wheelchair and taken out to his parents' minivan. They refused EMS/911 again, and I wished them good luck as they took him home.


Did I do anything wrong? Did I miss anything?

Considerations in my head:

1) His mother gave him the medication - I was not involved in that at all, I know I am not allowed to give / recommend medication (even as an EMR, except a patient's own epi-pen I think)

2) His mother refused EMS, so I feel that the point at which I discontinued care was appropriate even without higher level care taking over - it was a patient refusal (mother of a minor), not an 'abandonment'.

3) I have my ASHI CPR card from August 2012 and I just passed the Professional CPR certification last week, so I felt comfortable limiting my help to what I am certified for, I would not have done any EMR-specific interventions (OPA, NPA etc). Would have called 911 had that been needed.


I am doing EMR because of the number of times I find myself in these types of situations. I am not making EMS a career and will not be working for any agency or have a medical director. This year alone I have help with a broken ankle at a skate park, a vehicle entrapment on the freeway, a spun-out wreck on a freeway, a broken arm at karate, a possible ankle sprain and knee sprain (to different events) at the trampoline park, a hypoglycemic student at karate... The list goes on. I must be a jinx or something.
 
Its good that you are thinking about all of those things.


I cannot comment on legal aspects or CPG aspects for where you are as I am in Australia and things may be different.

From my experiences, parents with children that have special needs or that are palliative. Generally are given routine medications and training for situations like this. The medication was probably intra-anal Valium (Diazepam) a muscle relaxant.

(Good/most) Parents know their child well, and have taken on the responsibility of looking after their child and the requirements of their child.

The mother in this example sounded very calm, like this has happened before (and she said it has).

My first experience similar to this, the mother was more calm than I, and I looked to her for an expert opinion of what her child's signs and symptoms were telling me.

You did the right thing. Just remember that, an advanced airway is only required when the basic stuff is not effective.

If the lateral position is doing its job in maintaining an airway then that is all that is needed until it is not needed anymore. (Situation and patient permitting).

Good luck. :D
 
This link is good advice for concerned caregivers.

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/fcs/pdfs/NC16.pdf

These parents are probably better trained than most Paramedics to handle their child's chronic medical problems.

The father was in control enough to position his child. What you might perceive as frantic might just be anguish over watching his child go through this many times and knowing he will go through until his little life eventually ends from other complications.

Just remember you are not obligated to assist at every accident. Vehicle entrapment on a freeway does not sound like a very safe scene. Call 911 and don't put yourself or others in harm's way.
 
Just remember you are not obligated to assist at every accident. Vehicle entrapment on a freeway does not sound like a very safe scene. Call 911 and don't put yourself or others in harm's way.


Udnerstood. I always consider scene safety. I've taken CPR every couple of years for the last 20 years (From boy scouts, high school, army cadets, red cross, ashi etc) and scene safety is always the first thing they drill into you. I have passed by many situation where help was needed because stopping would be too dangerous. I drove past a man sitting on the shoulder of a major highway (65mph) this afternoon just a couple feet from traffic - no way to get stopped safely by the time I saw him. I was about to call 911 when I saw him stand up - turns out he was just tying his shoes!)

In the entrapment case all four lanes of the freeway were blocked and it was about 10 minutes before EMS arrived. There was an off-duty EMT in the first row of stopped cars who was calling the shots so I assisted him by dealing with a second patient with very minor injuries. I also cleared debris so the emergency vehicles could get to the scene. If traffic was still flowing then it would be much more dangerous scene and I'd have to make a judgement call on stopping - I'd rather call 911 than become an additional patient...

This was the incident that prompted me to finally take the EMR course - I knew that without the off-duty EMT being there I would have been out of my depth dealing with the trapped driver.
 
If true "help" is needed prior to EMS arrival, it will be abundantly obvious. Crazy scenarios aside, the only things a layperson (yes, this includes off duty EMS in most jurisdictions) can do to truly help a patient without any equipment is bleeding control and CPR. A seizure doesn't need either of those. People with seizure disorders often have them all the time, and their families/caregivers know how to deal with them when they happen.

To shamelessly steal a phrase from someone else on this forum, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. You have a CPR cert, so you seemed to expect that this scenario was going to progress to a full code. Most medical problems in the field don't get to that point. It's good that you want to help people and are willing to step in, but reserve it for the rare times it's actually needed. Besides those few times, I'd simply help people on a non medical level as any other bystander should. Remember, what are any of us going to do for the injuries or conditions you mention if we have no equipment? I can stare at an open fracture, but it won't help anyone. I can watch an ongoing status seizure patient, but I can't do a thing to stop it. Without an Epi-Pen, I wouldn't even be able to do anything about an anaphylactic reaction happening right in front of me.

If you want to get involved in this on some level, see about doing some ride alongs at your local agency. I know you already have a full time job you enjoy, but some exposure to the career might give you a bit of perspective on what we expect/want bystanders to do prior to our arrival.
 
If true "help" is needed prior to EMS arrival, it will be abundantly obvious. Crazy scenarios aside, the only things a layperson (yes, this includes off duty EMS in most jurisdictions) can do to truly help a patient without any equipment is bleeding control and CPR. A seizure doesn't need either of those.

I was more concerned with ensuring his airway was maintained, which I believe is both a valid concern when the patient is unconscious and face up, and within the scope of my CPR cert. I didn't say I *did* CPR, just helped them move him to a place where we could put him in a proper recovery recovery position.

Was that wrong? I interpret your post as me doing the wrong thing, if that is correct then could you clarify what I did wrong? I've posted like this before and I have had a surprising number of responses that seem say; "You can't help, don't try, walk away". :huh:
 
I don't think you did anything wrong per se. What you did sounds to be the correct actions to take on this case. The big thing to me is that the caretakers already knew how to manage their child's chronic medical condition. We teach students all the time about BLS airway control and how it is paramount in unresponsive patients, but this isn't the first time this has happened to the kid. Just because someone had a seizure doesn't mean they need airway management. He's had seizures with typical postictal periods before, and this really isn't anything out of the ordinary. Obviously you wouldn't know these things without talking to the parents, but it's why I tend to leave anything like this alone while off duty. People will call 911 if they need help. Until that point, I'm really not a big fan of imposing my "assistance" on someone who didn't ask for it.
 
I don't think you did anything wrong per se. What you did sounds to be the correct actions to take on this case. The big thing to me is that the caretakers already knew how to manage their child's chronic medical condition. We teach students all the time about BLS airway control and how it is paramount in unresponsive patients, but this isn't the first time this has happened to the kid. Just because someone had a seizure doesn't mean they need airway management. He's had seizures with typical postictal periods before, and this really isn't anything out of the ordinary. Obviously you wouldn't know these things without talking to the parents, but it's why I tend to leave anything like this alone while off duty. People will call 911 if they need help. Until that point, I'm really not a big fan of imposing my "assistance" on someone who didn't ask for it.


Fair enough - I can appreciate that. I offered help and they accepted, so I hope they didn't feel I was imposing.
 
If you want to get involved in this on some level, see about doing some ride alongs at your local agency. I know you already have a full time job you enjoy, but some exposure to the career might give you a bit of perspective on what we expect/want bystanders to do prior to our arrival.

The local FD/EMS station is having an open house in a couple of weeks - I'll definitely talk to them about a ride-along. Also a couple of students in my EMR class are EMT-Bs from another agency getting their refresher hours so I can ask them too.
 
Fair enough - I can appreciate that. I offered help and they accepted, so I hope they didn't feel I was imposing.

I'm actually pretty sure that they did, they just had other things to focus on, and it was easier to just play along then tell you to go away.
 
So you're that guy,

Sorry but that's funny.

I will say it's pretty frustrating running code to an "unknown problem/man down" that a drive by caller calls in and didn't stop to find out what was going on and then to either not find a patient or have to write paper on someone who was tying their shoe.

You didn't do anything wrong, sounds like you were very thorough with your minimal training. I just personally don't get involved unless I absolutely have to when I'm off duty and even then I don't ID myself as knowing anything more than CPR.
 
I'm actually pretty sure that they did, they just had other things to focus on, and it was easier to just play along then tell you to go away.

Pretty sure huh? Tell the kid's dad I said "Hi" when you speak to him again, as you apparently have spoken to him before?

Ask him why he went out of his way to seek me out of the crowd afterwards and thank me profusely for my help, and that he was scared as it hadn't happened to the kid in two years and they had trouble remembering what they should do. Also ask him why they gave me specific things to do to help (creating a visual barrier from the lookie-loos, keeping an eye on the kid's pulse rate, showing them how tell that he was coming around when they were worried the medication wasn't working quickly enough, pick the kid up into the wheelchair as he was too heavy for the dad to pick up, help carry the wheelchair down the steps to the parking lot) :unsure:

But yeah, I was SUCH an imposition. :rofl:
 
Sorry but that's funny.
I will say it's pretty frustrating running code to an "unknown problem/man down" that a drive by caller calls in and didn't stop to find out what was going on and then to either not find a patient or have to write paper on someone who was tying their shoe.

So I should NOT stop and just call 911 if it is dangerous? But in the same thread being told I SHOULD have stopped before calling 911?

Do you see my confusion?
 
You didn't do anything wrong, sounds like you were very thorough with your minimal training. I just personally don't get involved unless I absolutely have to when I'm off duty and even then I don't ID myself as knowing anything more than CPR.

I am always off duty. :cool:
 
Sorry but that's funny.

I will say it's pretty frustrating running code to an "unknown problem/man down" that a drive by caller calls in and didn't stop to find out what was going on and then to either not find a patient or have to write paper on someone who was tying their shoe.

You didn't do anything wrong, sounds like you were very thorough with your minimal training. I just personally don't get involved unless I absolutely have to when I'm off duty and even then I don't ID myself as knowing anything more than CPR.

We get these a lot, especially at the car pool drop off site. Someone gets a little tired decides to take a nap and someone decides to call 911 vs. checking to see if they are ok.


to The OP. You did the right thing, you offered assistance and they accepted your help. You didn't get all crazy like offering to administer a benzo to stop the seizure.

Most Parents I met with kids that are "special needs" or have chronic illnesses parents are pretty well educated on how to handle such situations. Most of them are much more educated and can perform more advanced procedures than some of us in the medical field.
 
Most Parents I met with kids that are "special needs" or have chronic illnesses parents are pretty well educated on how to handle such situations. Most of them are much more educated and can perform more advanced procedures than some of us in the medical field.

My brother was the same - he had to take all kinds of meds from age 10 after a craniopharyngioma that I swear they removed with a backhoe. No pituitary left, no thyroid etc, he was on thyroxin, phenytoin, desmopressin acetate and he had an autoinjector of growth hormone he had to take twice a day. All of the immediate a family members went to the the hospital for a quick course on how to use the hydrocortisone (standard intramuscular injection, not auto/epipen style) and how to give an intramuscular injection, and under what circumstances to do so (to counteract shock, so if he was in a accident and started to pass out etc...). We always carried the hydrocortisone kit with us everywhere he went.

I'm very familiar with what it is like to have to be first responder to an immediate family member with very precise medical needs. I did all his injections for years until he could be trusted to do it himself.
 
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So to review: If it is too dangerous to stop then don't stop. Scene safety etc. But also, unless I *know* that EMS is *definitely* needed then I shouldn't call 911 either?

How can you tell if he definitely needs ems in the 2 seconds that you see him as you pass him at 65mph sitting on the fogline of a major highway?
 
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