Sedation Deaths

Maybe 2News Sunrise didn't know they'd been scooped, nor is it a bad thing that we don't depend on PBS for direction on this topic...stopped at 3...


Now comparing these with pre-hospital medical/trauma analgesia/sedation adverse effects and ER psych sedation adverse effects would give a little clarity that PBS and 2News Sunrise may lack or just not be interested in. 94 deaths nationally in 9 years is all they could associate with out of hospital sedation?

Tylenol kills 250 people per year in unintentional OD's. At the risk of straw manning the argument or reducing the deaths of individuals to an insignificant statistic, this is a non story that I hope some dumb politicians wouldn't run with and try to take away a valuable tool or continue to demonize the police.

oh...and an "investigation by the AP" is not a "study".
 
I have seen ketamine fail, Ativan fail, Geodon fail in these patients. These patients are not always high on some medication, but for whatever reason they present in delirium. Sometimes with these patients, the best course of action is RSI. Excited delirium patients are at risk for death simply because they’re that highly agitated… In short, that news story is looking to sensationalize something that should be a non-story.
 
One also needs to consider shock index, sympathetic storm, and oxygenation prior to sedation. Similar to what we have found when studying RSI deaths, when the patient is barely hanging on and only surviving based on their body's sympathetic release and we sedate and blunt that internal response, the patient has a high propensity for crashing and dying.

Obviously, we're not going to be able to establish these things in a violent patient, but it needs to be in the back of your mind. We should probably do a better job of immediate assessment and prepare for aggressive management in anyone we chemically sedate as soon as it's safe to do so.

I have given my fair share of ketamine for chemical restraint, thankfully I've not had a patient crash on me. With that said, many areas (including my own) have gone to a more staggered approach to chemical sedation, scaled based on the level of agitation we see, which has shown to be safer.
 
In any event - adminstration of an antipsychotic (or any other drug used for a psych reason) is out of scope for the paramedic. We are not trained in psychiatric services. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised to see second degree murder charges (e g. Negligence) filed on this.
 
One also needs to consider shock index, sympathetic storm, and oxygenation prior to sedation. Similar to what we have found when studying RSI deaths, when the patient is barely hanging on and only surviving based on their body's sympathetic release and we sedate and blunt that internal response, the patient has a high propensity for crashing and dying.

Obviously, we're not going to be able to establish these things in a violent patient, but it needs to be in the back of your mind. We should probably do a better job of immediate assessment and prepare for aggressive management in anyone we chemically sedate as soon as it's safe to do so.

I have given my fair share of ketamine for chemical restraint, thankfully I've not had a patient crash on me. With that said, many areas (including my own) have gone to a more staggered approach to chemical sedation, scaled based on the level of agitation we see, which has shown to be safer.
Messing about with Ketamine outside of RSI is how malpractice lawyers make money and how entire hospitals go broke.
 
Messing about with Ketamine outside of RSI is how malpractice lawyers make money and how entire hospitals go broke.
And posting things you really know nothing about is how people find out you aren’t as knowledgeable as you think.
 
First of all - with all due respect - don't make assumptions about ones knowledge merely because they posess a new account.

Secondly, after the Maya Kowalski case and given the nonsense of using ketamine off label for the treatment of PTSD as has been the recent trend, the legal system is looking to pounce on a ketamine related death under circumstances where there isn't a rather large following of MDs whom would support the decision to use it for mere sedation on the legal record in open court (which you probably won't because of its DEA classification as a schedule III and because some states treat it as a schedule II)there are specific reasons an alternative isn't viable.
 
First of all - with all due respect - don't make assumptions about ones knowledge merely because they posess a new account.

Secondly, after the Maya Kowalski case and given the nonsense of using ketamine off label for the treatment of PTSD as has been the recent trend, the legal system is looking to pounce on a ketamine related death under circumstances where there isn't a rather large following of MDs whom would support the decision to use it for mere sedation on the legal record in open court (which you probably won't because of its DEA classification as a schedule III and because some states treat it as a schedule II)there are specific reasons an alternative isn't viable.
Ketamine is widely used for chemical restraint in EMS, protocols written by physicians.

There’s plenty of support for ketamine.
 
First of all - with all due respect - don't make assumptions about ones knowledge merely because they posess a new account.

Secondly, after the Maya Kowalski case and given the nonsense of using ketamine off label for the treatment of PTSD as has been the recent trend, the legal system is looking to pounce on a ketamine related death under circumstances where there isn't a rather large following of MDs whom would support the decision to use it for mere sedation on the legal record in open court (which you probably won't because of its DEA classification as a schedule III and because some states treat it as a schedule II)there are specific reasons an alternative isn't viable.
Well, since you haven't really introduced yourself and let us know your basis and qualifications for making your claims, you don't leave them much choice except to make assumptions based solely upon the content and quality of your posts.
 
You are wrong.

Having looked it up Ketamine is in fact not FDA approved for use for sedation, but rather is approved for use as a surgical anesthetic agent and just gained approval this year for surgical Pain control. This in turn makes it an off label use which in turn creates a legal presumption of negligence liability where there is injury or death resulting from said off label use.

Well, since you haven't really introduced yourself and let us know your basis and qualifications for making your claims, you don't leave them much choice except to make assumptions based solely upon the content and quality of your posts.
ACLS certified medicolegal investigator - Tragos, Sartes, and Tragos at clearwater FL.

Anyone wanting to see certs can send me an email addy or else can STFU about credentialing, which I am not - I might add - obliged to provide anyone here.

You disrespect me I disrespect you. That's how this is going to work, so I suggest you adjust your attitude before making my block list, because, frankly, I dont put up with peoples **** unless they're a member of the Bar.
 
Having looked it up Ketamine is in fact not FDA approved for use for sedation, but rather is approved for use as a surgical anesthetic agent and just gained approval this year for surgical Pain control. This in turn makes it an off label use which in turn creates a legal presumption of negligence liability where there is injury or death resulting from said off label use.


ACLS certified medicolegal investigator - Tragos, Sartes, and Tragos at clearwater FL.

Anyone wanting to see certs can send me an email addy or else can STFU about credentialing, which I am not - I might add - obliged to provide anyone here.

You disrespect me I disrespect you. That's how this is going to work, so I suggest you adjust your attitude before making my block list, because, frankly, I dont put up with peoples **** unless they're a member of the Bar.
My dude - the disrespect started exactly on your end.
 
Having looked it up Ketamine is in fact not FDA approved for use for sedation, but rather is approved for use as a surgical anesthetic agent and just gained approval this year for surgical Pain control. This in turn makes it an off label use which in turn creates a legal presumption of negligence liability where there is injury or death resulting from said off label use.


ACLS certified medicolegal investigator - Tragos, Sartes, and Tragos at clearwater FL.

Anyone wanting to see certs can send me an email addy or else can STFU about credentialing, which I am not - I might add - obliged to provide anyone here.

You disrespect me I disrespect you. That's how this is going to work, so I suggest you adjust your attitude before making my block list, because, frankly, I dont put up with peoples **** unless they're a member of the Bar.
Bwahahahahaha....put me on your block list. That's rich. Here's a hint for you...there's a reason my name is in a different color, and it means you can't block me. I suggest you leave the attitude and work towards being a valued member of the community .
 
Having looked it up Ketamine is in fact not FDA approved for use for sedation, but rather is approved for use as a surgical anesthetic agent and just gained approval this year for surgical Pain control. This in turn makes it an off label use which in turn creates a legal presumption of negligence liability where there is injury or death resulting from said off label use.
There absolutely is no "legal presumption of negligence liability" due to off-label use of a drug 🤣. If that were true, then a majority of physicians and advanced practice providers commit medical negligence multiple times a day, every day. Clearly that is not, in fact, the case.

Did you know, for example, that ondansetron (Zofran) is FDA approved ONLY for the prophylaxis or treatment of nausea and vomiting for patients taking chemotherapy or radiation therapy, and in the perioperative period? If what you are claiming is true, any provider who is not an oncologist or anesthesia provider is guilty of negligence any time they prescribe Zofran. This, despite the fact that Zofran is recommended by multiple authorities as a first or second-line therapy for most common cases of N&V.

Do you think the AAFP recommends Zofran as a second-line therapy for hyperemesis gravidarum because they secretly want their obstetricians to be sued for negligence? Fentanyl is not FDA approved for sedation in ventilated ICU patients; has it become commonly used for that purpose because the many authorities who recommend it are conspiring against intensivists?

As an "ACLS certified medicolegal investigator" you must be well aware that the FDA does not regulate the practice of medicine in any way; it regulates drug and medical device manufacturers. FDA approved uses for a drug or device relate solely to how the drug may be marketed or recommended for use by the manufacturers, and has nothing to do with how the drug may be used or prescribed by physicians. In critical care and anesthesia it is probably just as common for a given drug to be used for off-label purposes as it is to be used in accordance with them.

Your expertise must surely also include an understanding that a finding of medical negligence requires a demonstration that the provider failed to adhere to the standard of care that another provider would have. That is pretty much all negligence cases come down to. The act in question is either accepted practice and would be found reasonable by other clinicians with similar training and experience, or it is not. The FDA medication inserts have nothing to do with it.

For paramedics, it pretty much just comes down to whether or not they were following their training and protocols in a reasonable manner. If they were, then they are fine.
 
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