Rochester AMR Call

PotatoMedic

PotatoMedic

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CCCSD

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Even if he did, that’s going to hurt AMR and the crew.
Once LE was there, the scene was controlled and what prevented at least BLS level care until the second unit arrived?

Cops have to provide care to a suspect after a shooting, fight, etc. Why are Ambulance crews any different?
 
Tigger

Tigger

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AMR's own internal training program tells you to create space between your attacker and you, can't say they would be wrong for kicking someone out of the ambulance that assaulted them.

But then the dude is lying on the ground obviously having some sort of issue and law enforcement is with you....I dunno seems like maybe it would be appropriate to go investigate.
 
CCCSD

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Tigger said:
AMR's own internal training program tells you to create space between your attacker and you, can't say they would be wrong for kicking someone out of the ambulance that assaulted them.

But then the dude is lying on the ground obviously having some sort of issue and law enforcement is with you....I dunno seems like maybe it would be appropriate to go investigate.
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Abandonment.
 
PotatoMedic

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EpiEMS

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The footage out there doesn't look pretty.
 
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mgr22

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For this not to be abandonment, wouldn't EMS or the patient have had to decide no further medical care was needed (unlikely, given the patient's grunting and tripoding)?
 
PotatoMedic

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mgr22 said:
For this not to be abandonment, wouldn't EMS or the patient have had to decide no further medical care was needed (unlikely, given the patient's grunting and tripoding)?
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Per the initial report he got in and immediately laid hands on the provider and assaulted her. At that point I would be terminating care and separating myself from the subject. Once PD arrives is the subject still needs medical care I'll re-engage and address their needs when my safety and well-being is no longer at risk.

Unfortunately for everyone involved, that is not what these providers did.

Also if you read the article by Wolfberg you'd know there is no true definition of abandonment. It would be something that would be argued in the courtroom.
 
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mgr22

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PotatoMedic said:
Per the initial report he got in and immediately laid hands on the provider and assaulted her. At that point I would be terminating care and separating myself from the subject. Once PD arrives is the subject still needs medical care I'll re-engage and address their needs when my safety and well-being is no longer at risk.

Unfortunately for everyone involved, that is not what these providers did.

Also if you read the article by Wolfberg you'd know there is no true definition of abandonment. It would be something that would be argued in the courtroom.
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I read the article and I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I'll just add that my impression from the video is that the nature of the assault was grabbing, not hitting, and there were no apparent injuries.

As you pointed out, there was a missed opportunity to reset and re-engage once PD arrived.
 
CCCSD

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PotatoMedic said:
I'm pretty sure there are lots of attorneys at AMR/GMR who would happily disagree with you.

Also this: https://www.ems1.com/legal/patient-abandonment-stop-the-nonsense


Finally I'd argue that someone assaulting me is refusing medical care, so not abandonment.
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Yeah. I can see the injuries and victim demeanor being exhibited by the obviously battered and scared crew… I mean, they were terrified.

At least AMR will be out $$$ for being stupid. I don’t care about AMR attorneys, their input doesn’t matter. It’s what the jury finds.

So an Autistic Patient fights you. Walk away. An Epileptic punches you. Walk away. A Diabetic patient lashes out out you. Walk away. A Respiratory Emergency patient grabs you. Walk away.

Those are all assaults, so according to your treatment modality they are refusing care and you aren’t required to do anything. Sort of like this guy in the video…
 
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PotatoMedic

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Got news for you: an article or feelings of an attorney do not make case law. The courts are pretty clear on it.
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It's a fairly respectable EMS law firm. They probably are well aware of the case law so seems to be a respectable opinion.

I'd be happy to review any case law that you know of.
 
MMiz

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I understand the frustration with treating a combative patient. Retreat to safety and call for backup, PD, supervisor, whatever is needed.

I can potentially understand treating a patient that is trying to leave the ambulance outside the ambulance. It sucks, definitely not ideal, isn’t comfortable, but allows you to at least initiate care until backup arrives.

I don’t understand why treatment couldn’t resume once PD arrived

I’m baffled to see so many people standing by as the man is in distress, prone on the ground.

As to the legal definition of abandonment, I think a lot of EMS providers get caught up on the vocabulary in second chapter of their course textbooks.

This incident may lead to a lawsuit, but I’m consistently shocked at how few lawsuits there are related to EMS, and even more surprised to see so few cases go to trial. It seems most EMS-related cases are related to employment law.
 
NomadicMedic

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this is my point exactly. Why didn’t they treat the patient after the police arrived? At that point he seem to be relatively calm, and they could’ve just moved forward with treating him.
 
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mgr22

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NomadicMedic said:
this is my point exactly. Why didn’t they treat the patient after the police arrived? At that point he seem to be relatively calm, and they could’ve just moved forward with treating him.
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I'm also wondering if the crew tried treating the patient earlier -- say, with O2 -- or did they give up too soon?

The patient seemed to understand he needed care. He may have been agitated without being dangerous. To me, the crew seemed more inconvenienced than scared or relieved when PD arrived.
 
VentMonkey

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Don’t know the specifics of the whole call (prior to what is on the body camera). Was the patient aggressive/ combative because he was struggling to breathe, and thus grabbed (assaulted) the EMS worker?…

From what’s documented it would certainly appear that he was in distress with no apparent signs of a workup shown (not knowing or saying it wasn’t done).

The reaction by the EMS worker sort of scolding him and even the way she spoke carry undertones of ignorance on her behalf.

Unfortunately, it looks like another black eye for the EMS “profession” as a whole. Also, her reaction once the paramedic arrives says a lot. The man clearly needed a second assessment at least prior to his collapse.
 
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