(RANT) Idiot drivers

[Shishkabob]

So, I was driving to work today and got in an accident.

I was headed down the road, a 4 lane (2 each way) highway with a speedlimit of 55. I was in the right lane coming up on a stop-light that was red. 3 vehicles were in the left lane stopped, and I had no vehicles infront of me.

A few hundred feet out, the light turns green, and I continue on my way. The last vehicle in the group on the left takes it upon himself to change lanes into MY lane, with me less then 80 feet from him. I was going 50, and he started at 0.

I hit my brakes, but still end up tapping his bumper. We pull over and inspect the damage. My license plate is bent, but no noticble damage on either vehicle. He ends up stating that his rear-right brake light was slightly dislodged, but it was only cosmetic.


So police come, and the driver tells the cop that he pulled infront of me when he shouldn't have because he thought I was further away then I was. He admitted fault.



Yet, the cop writes me a citation for "failing to control speed", thereby making fault of the accident mine. How the hell does that make sense?


So I'll be going to court this week, and will fight this ticket. If this ticket cost me a single penny, either in court cost or insurance spike, I'm taking the other driver to court, as it was clearly, and self-admittedly, his fault.

 

[Flight-LP]

Doesn't matter, you will not win. If you struck the rear bumper of the other vehicle, it is your fault. Welcome to Texas' laws of the road......................

Good luck trying though!

 

[akflightmedic]

Most states have similar laws. You rear ended him which means you are at fault.

Your summary brings up two points.

1. Your estimation on feet and speed seems to sound very accurate to you but in reality, we are never the distance or speed we thought we were in that moment. Our minds are not where they should be, we all do it. Not that it would be done in this situation but I would be willing to bet if they did the math considering speed, distance and point of impact, you would be way off.

2. Have you ever taken EVOC or CEVO class? This is exactly the points they try to drive home (sorry for the pun).

You are in charge of the vehicle. As you were approaching, you should reduce your speed to take in account of people who may last minute lane change. Especially in an emergency vehicle when they may hear you before they see you and start to pull over. I realize you were in your POV, but the rules still apply.

Me personally, I never go through an intersection that has just changed green without looking both ways before proceeding (if I was at a stop), and never blast through at speed if the light has just changed as I am approaching because I have to presume someone else is in more of a hurry and ran the yellow or red light.

Defensive driving and offensive driving are skills that need to be learned and practiced in every day routines. As you were approaching, you should be thinking what would I do if someone moves over in front of me...what can I do to mitigate or even negate the situation. The answer would be to reduce speed in this situation. Obviously, you may have already been thinking it if you had time to hit brakes and only "tap" his rear.

Glad the outcome was not worse, but this is a situation to which you contributed whether you realize it or not.

***I am also willing to bet if you stood in front of the judge and said it like I did, you would be let off. Explain how after much thought and reflecting on your EVOC course you realized you inadvertently contributed by not anticipating the other driver's moves and although you were not illegally speeding, in retrospect, you could have slowed down more and avoided the entire crash.

Trust me on this, acknowledging things could be different, displaying having learned a lesson and ACCEPTING PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY will go a long way in the court and in front of the judge.

DO not try to shift blame, do not outright deny all responsibility.

After explaining it as stated above, then you can mention that you have the training and skills, you are still learning to apply them in everyday driving situations. Also mention that "At Fault" crashes do not bode well for your career as employers do not allow those.


A dose of humility, personal accountability, and lesson learned will save you from this ticket.

Or....

You can go in there and whine and point fingers and say it is not your fault and get angry and see what that brings.

Please update us as I am truly interested in which route of defense you choose and the outcome.

 

[curt]

^ Agreed. I love motorcycles, love to look at them, love to ride them, love to even hear them. They're fun to ride, and give me a sense of identity, since I'm not driving a four-wheeled cookie cutter differentiated only by the logo on the grill (they knew how to make cars in the late 60s, but today it's like they're all following the same uninteresting master mold). The problem is that motorcycles, as anyone on here can tell you, are dangerous to ride not because of the incompetence of the rider but because of the incompetence of the other drivers around the rider. A motorcycle's obviously no match for a ton of car in the hands of an idiot. I've personally had several close scrapes with eating it at the hands of some four-wheeled vehicles because their drivers were either too stupid or too lazy to care for safe motor vehicle operation, being saved only by assuming that they're out to run my butt over to begin with and thus being prepared when they inevitably decide to dumb it up.

Thus is defensive driving, basically assuming and treating all other drivers as if they're idiots and need their licenses taken away. Not in person, of course, that's rude. If you already suspect that they're getting ready to do something stupid, then you're not going to be caught by surprise when they actually do. It's probably saved me life and limb several times, and could well save you some legal problems (as well as a hospital stay for someone involved).

 

[Shishkabob]

AKF, I get what you're saying, I really do, but the fact is, he is still in the wrong for what he did, not me.

As my all time favorite teacher once quoted "You can't predict stupid".


By the time I realized he was going to try to move in to my lane, my foot was fully on the brake, tires squealing. Still not enough distance to stop.

Of course I'll go by a much more diplomatic route, and none of this "It was all him, not me" type of argument. This is solely a rant on an internet forum.


Like I said, if I get found guilty at court, I'm going to small claims court, as all I need is preponderance of evidence, and I should have more then that with his admittance.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

You are be right that you are not at fault form a logic perspective, but the law is all that matters. The cop is following his protocl (the law) just as we do oures and you can't fault him for that. Hopefully the judge will do the right thing, so good luck, but don't expect it. :sad:

 

[akflightmedic]

AKF, I get what you're saying, I really do, but the fact is, he is still in the wrong for what he did, not me.

As my all time favorite teacher once quoted "You can't predict stupid".


By the time I realized he was going to try to move in to my lane, my foot was fully on the brake, tires squealing. Still not enough distance to stop.

Of course I'll go by a much more diplomatic route, and none of this "It was all him, not me" type of argument. This is solely a rant on an internet forum.


Like I said, if I get found guilty at court, I'm going to small claims court, as all I need is preponderance of evidence, and I should have more then that with his admittance.

Please take this in the spirit it is intended. Your comment where you still have to try and convince me that he is wrong and you are right tells me where your mindset is.

Ok, you are not wrong, I/we hear you. Now from experience, the was I explained it above does not admit you were wrong. However the situation/law dictates that you were.

With this in mind, if you stand before the judge and state what I told you earlier, you will fare way better than insisting you are right, he is wrong mentality.

You are a medic student. You do not want "at fault" accidents on your record before you get your dream job wherever that may be.

What I am asking you to consider is kind of like the interview question where the employer asks you to state two of your positive traits. Immediately after answering, they ask you to state two negative characteristics.

This is a very tough question and most people do poorly on this question. What you do is spin the answer to where it is a negative but it is a "positive negative". For example, I always say something like I can never be late, I must always arrive early. They look at me like I am crazy until I explain that this is a negative because it affects my family, people around me, etc because I will interupt whatever I am doing to leave way early for a scheduled meeting.

I just spun a negative into a positive.

This is what I was trying to get you to consider when standing before the judge. You spin the fact that you may have been able to avoid this by slowing down...even though you didn't have to, you were in the right and not speeding. your training should have led you to slow down sooner.

When you present it like this, the judge will become empathetic when he realizes you are sincere, you have analyzed the crash and thoght about what could be done differently.

Then when you add on that you are a student and this will prevent you from getting a job possibly...he will consider these things.

Do you see how maybe you should change your thought process and stance before going into court?

Does any of this make sense?

You are not admitting fault, you are admitting that you possibly may have changed the outcome.

 

[VentMedic]

As my all time favorite teacher once quoted "You can't predict stupid".

You are approaching an intersection with a stop light on a highway. You should "expect" stupid if you can not always predict it. This light may have been placed for a good reason at that location.

By the time I realized he was going to try to move in to my lane, my foot was fully on the brake, tires squealing. Still not enough distance to stop.

You failed to negotiate the intersection defensively. When you continue to travel at highway speed without due caution or at being aware of what other cars who are stopped may do, you are at fault especially when you run into their rear end at an intersection.

If there had still been a person, especially a child, in front of the other cars still in the interection, that "tap" from your front bumper would have be much worse than comestic damage. Not only do you have to be aware of the cars but also of pedistrians even if this is a highway. That may be the only opportunity some may have to cross and the light may not be timed for people walking. The other cars could also have been still stopped at the intersection because they had the vantage point to see an emergency vehicle approaching.

You did exactly what many emergency drivers fear; blowing through an intersection at highway speed because the light is green without expecting the unexpected. Thus, that can make you appear to be the idiot driver.

Of course I'll go by a much more diplomatic route, and none of this "It was all him, not me" type of argument. This is solely a rant on an internet forum.


Like I said, if I get found guilty at court, I'm going to small claims court, as all I need is preponderance of evidence, and I should have more then that with his admittance.

Good luck with that but I can guarantee you will have to prove you used due caution and was in control of your vehicle while approaching an intersection with a red light turning green. From your presentation of the facts here, you may have a difficult time with that.

 

[Shishkabob]

Intersection is visible for more then half a mile from all 4 directions, no obstructions, no trees, no buildings, no billboard signs. No traffic coming from any of the other 3 directions. No blinker from the car who hit me. No matter how you spin it, HE'S at fault.

Just because a person chose to turn right in front of me when he had no rhyme or reason to does NOT mean I was driving without due regard to safety. He stated to the officer, and I quote, "The car in front of me wasn't moving fast enough at the green, so I turned in to the other lane, thinking I had more time". That's HIS failure to use due regard. That's HIS failure to be safe. That's HIS failure.


If I step outside of my door, and a bullet someone shot straight up in to the air from a mile away hits me, by your theory, I'm at fault, because I didn't expect someone to be that stupid. That's just silly.



BUT, and so this doesn't get mistaken for again, this is NOT the defense I'll be using in court. It's just a rant... and a rant that a judge will never see.

 

[VentMedic]

I take your reply as a NO for not yet having an EVOC or CEVO class.

I guess you've never had a pedestrian, especially a child, step out from in front of a car at an intersection. Your gaze was obviously focused a mile away and was not watching what was immediately in front of you.

If you are going to ever drive an ambulance, you will have to expect the unexpected and approach intersections with caution. Blaming others will not always protect you in a court of law even if the other person is also accepting their part of the responsibility.

If you mention you do drive ambulances, the judge will most definitely be interested in why you do not know a few basic principles of defensive driving.

 

[akflightmedic]

It is fine that this is just a rant, but your refusal to admit even the slightest bit of responsibility for contributing to the accident is disturbing.

It tells me many things about your character, many of which I would not want in a medic student nor a partner.

I used kid gloves in the first 2 postings, but your ADAMANT refusal to acquiesce in the slightest is amazing (and not in a good way).

Vent, I agree this is most likely a no to EVOC or CEVO.

OP, your bullet comment has no relevance as that is something that is completely random and out of your control.

Work with us here and let us play a game called "Imagine".

Imagine you had anticipated stupid, and slowed down as you were approaching? Would the outcome be the same?

I imagine it would not be because you merely tapped this guy after much braking, had you been going even 3-5 mph less, this would never have occurred...so I imagine.

What is your age if you do not mind? And yes, it is relevant.

Disregard the above question. I saw your age is listed as "20" in your profile.

 

[Shishkabob]

20. 1 accident in 5 years, 1 ticket in 5 years for going 40 in a 35. Took defensive driving just one week prior to this incident (required for Dallas), EVOC (as required), 6ish months of drivers education, and many further drivers education classes beyond the norm.

The reason I'm so adamant is the two of you will not acknowledge the fact that he was in the wrong, and that it is only my fault because I didn't anticipate someone doing something that idiotic. Fact is, he switched lanes in a manner that totally precluded my stopping in time, no matter what I wished or wanted.

If I did something illegal that lead to the accident, I would fully accept responsibility, but I did nothing wrong other then not anticipating stupidity. Heck, I was still going 50 in a 55, so if I was going the speed limit it would have been worse.

Yes, me driving in a different manner could have lead to a different outcome. Heck, I could have just chosen not to drive. But you can't do a "coulda/shoulda" argument, as the facts are already there.

With law, you have to go by what did happen, not what could have happened, and what did happen is he switched lanes in an unsafe manner.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

While I am not so "in your face" as some, I would ask you to draw a comparison here, Linuss:

If you have been driving in the same situation and, in addition to the cars "parked" on the left, now there are several 3-5 year olds playing along the sidewalk, would your driving have been different? You probably would have slowed down at least 1O-15 mph because you realize the chance of you stopping/swerving fsat enough to avoid one should they jump into the street is extremely low. If you had exercized the same caution with those cars, realizing that most drivers are children, this probably wouldn't have happened. Are you at fault? I still say no. Although some will say that you should have driven more defensivly, this guy obviously broke the law (state and common sence laws) and you really didn't IMHO. But if you acknowledge the fact that maybe if you should have anticipated other peoples stupidity (at least to the judge) others will view this situation as you want: blame the other driver.

The other thought I have is that you should think about the situation from the standpoint of "What if I was going code 3 in a rig and came upon this same situation". Would you have proceeded at 55 mph or faster, even though you are within your legal rights to do so? HELL NO. A. you would have been on the left, B. you would have been in anticipation of stupid drivers, and C. you would have slowed down unitl you safely passed the other cars, thus giving you a larger measure of safety. If there is one thing that everyone who drives Code 3 realizes is that it is far better to get to the call 30 seconds latter than to be put out of service because of an accident (your fault or theirs). So if we exercise that extreme defensive driving when going code, shouldn't you have driven similar in your POV with no lights, sirens, or a need to get to a call swiftly?

That said, you are still in the right from a logic standpoint. But the law and the judge might see things differently. IMHO. GOOD LUCK!

 

[akflightmedic]

The reason I'm so adamant is the two of you will not acknowledge the fact that he was in the wrong, and that it is only my fault because I didn't anticipate someone doing something that idiotic. Fact is, he switched lanes in a manner that totally precluded my stopping in time, no matter what I wished or wanted.

If I did something illegal that lead to the accident, I would fully accept responsibility, but I did nothing wrong other then not anticipating stupidity. Heck, I was still going 50 in a 55, so if I was going the speed limit it would have been worse.

First, re read my second post as I did say you were not wrong, nor did I say it was ONLY your fault. As I have stated over and over, you did indeed contribute to the accident. Your youthful pride and ego are speaking now, because you are not listening to the two of us.

It is your fault for not anticipating a stupid move, as you were driving regular speed approaching cars already at a stop. Everyday I see cars do the very thing that caused your accident, so it is not all that unusual of an occurrence. I am prepared for it. I anticipate it. I adjust MY actions to account for their stupidity.

So, yes, this is where you are wrong along with your continual denial of seeing how you contributed. That is just plain inexperience or immaturity, maybe both.

I am trying to assist you via internet forum with a very valuable life experience but receiving the typical teenager response. It is called personal accountability/responsibility. You refuse to accept any part of this incident, which to me is dumbfounding.

It indicates a stubbornness, inability to admit wrong or be corrected, unwillingness to listen with open mind and try to see it from a perspective other than your own.


I have also advised you on a very adult way of approaching this in the courtroom, but I fear your pride is going to ignore that as well and cost you more in the long run.

You have one previous speeding ticket but even describing that I sense the importance of it to you. Speeding is speeding but you had to justify it to us by saying "40 in a 35" so we (the reader) would take your side and say oh wow that is only a 5 mph difference at such a slow speed. Do you see how we form these impressions? Experience states you were probably going faster but the officer reduced it to that as a courtesy but that is neither here nor there. Your character is what we are discussing now.

 

[Shishkabob]

First, re read my second post as I did say you were not wrong, nor did I say it was ONLY your fault. As I have stated over and over, you did indeed contribute to the accident. Your youthful pride and ego are speaking now, because you are not listening to the two of us.

It is your fault for not anticipating a stupid move, as you were driving regular speed approaching cars already at a stop. Everyday I see cars do the very thing that caused your accident, so it is not all that unusual of an occurrence. I am prepared for it. I anticipate it. I adjust MY actions to account for their stupidity.

So, yes, this is where you are wrong along with your continual denial of seeing how you contributed. That is just plain inexperience or immaturity, maybe both.

I am trying to assist you via internet forum with a very valuable life experience but receiving the typical teenager response. It is called personal accountability/responsibility. You refuse to accept any part of this incident, which to me is dumbfounding.

It indicates a stubbornness, inability to admit wrong or be corrected, unwillingness to listen with open mind and try to see it from a perspective other than your own.


I have also advised you on a very adult way of approaching this in the courtroom, but I fear your pride is going to ignore that as well and cost you more in the long run.

You have one previous speeding ticket but even describing that I sense the importance of it to you. Speeding is speeding but you had to justify it to us by saying "40 in a 35" so we (the reader) would take your side and say oh wow that is only a 5 mph difference at such a slow speed. Do you see how we form these impressions? Experience states you were probably going faster but the officer reduced it to that as a courtesy but that is neither here nor there. Your character is what we are discussing now.

AKF, again, I realize where you're coming from, but you stating I contributed to the accident by not doing "due regard", in my eyes, is the same as saying I'm at fault for it. I'm just trying to get it across to you that nothing can be changed about yesterday. Don't discuss "what ifs" because that just waste time, as it cannot be changed.. Discuss the facts. Trust me, if I had the idea that he would have cut me off, I would have slowed down.


As for me putting the speed limit, don't think for a second that I was trying to justify it, because you would be, and currently are, horribly wrong. I wrote the speed for two reasons; 1 is the inevitable question "how fast were you going" after the mention of a ticket. Number 2 is I didn't want anyone to assume something outrageous such as 20 or 30 over. In fact, I could delve way deeper and correct how wrong you are on your assumption, but that would make you look even more on ways to destroy my character, or how you perceive it.

My character is no up for discussion. Facts are on my side. There is no attempt at justification. You don't know me or who I am or what I do from any other source but internet forum post, and taking a forum post for anything other than what it is is a bit naiive on your behalf. Anger at an incident that I was involved in, then posting it on a forum, does not reveal much, if anything, about my character other then that I am a bit angry at the circumstances surrounding it.

The other thought I have is that you should think about the situation from the standpoint of "What if I was going code 3 in a rig and came upon this same situation". Would you have proceeded at 55 mph or faster, even though you are within your legal rights to do so? HELL NO.

Of course I'd be driving in a much different manner. Already stupid people get even worse when they see flashing lights in their mirrors. No argument there.

 

[Shishkabob]

Double post

 

[medic417]

. I was in the right lane coming up on a stop-light that was red. 3 vehicles were in the left lane stopped, and I had no vehicles infront of me.

Seems like EVOC teaches not to pass on the right, but I know you were not running L&S. Also anytime you approach an intersection that is red then turns green when close like you described you should be slower than the speed limit by more than 5mph. It really sound like while he was guilty of bad judgment pulling in front of you, you were guilty of bad judgment for driving to fast at an intersection. Even if you go to court to sue him you probably will get nothing as you failed to use good judgment. Sorry, no offense meant.

 

[Shishkabob]

Seems like EVOC teaches not to pass on the right, but I know you were not running L&S. Also anytime you approach an intersection that is red then turns green when close like you described you should be slower than the speed limit by more than 5mph. It really sound like while he was guilty of bad judgment pulling in front of you, you were guilty of bad judgment for driving to fast at an intersection. Even if you go to court to sue him you probably will get nothing as you failed to use good judgment. Sorry, no offense meant.

None taken.

I can see how my miswording can lead to what you concluded. I was slowing down when I saw it red, and did no start to accelerate until it turned green. I was fully about to stop at a red light when it turned green. This is why I was only at 50 by the time I got to him, as I was actually slower before hand.

 

[VentMedic]

20. 1 accident in 5 years, 1 ticket in 5 years for going 40 in a 35.

So now at the age of only 20, you have 2 accidents and 2 tickets.

I can see how my miswording can lead to what you concluded. I was slowing down when I saw it red, and did no start to accelerate until it turned green. I was fully about to stop at a red light when it turned green. This is why I was only at 50 by the time I got to him, as I was actually slower before hand.

This also could be why the other driver thought he had time to make his move when he initially saw you were slowing down for the light. You punched it on the green which probably indicates you were paying more attention to the light than your surroundings.

If the other traffic is still stopped in the lanes next to you, one should be adjusting their speed accordingly. One should always be prepared for uneven pavement at the crossing, cars with mechanical failure, road obstruction or even a pedestrian down at an intersection. You may also put too much trust in the traffic from the other light that someone may not decide to punch it on the yellow.

Too often I have sat at the light of an intersection with L&S awaiting cars to give me permission to proceed. But, there always seems to be some idiot intent on watching just the light who pays little attention to an emergency vehicle. Or, they do finally see you, after breaking their gaze into the distance a mile away, and realize they are traveling too fast to stop safely. Yes, I just love idiot drivers like that.

 

[Shishkabob]

This isn't an issue of me not paying attention to the intersection, as I clearly was since I stated that there was no other traffic in any of the 3 other directions. No pedestrian traffic. No cones in the road. No aliens abducting cows.

I had a full, unobstructed view of the intersection. That is not the issue. The issue has always been someone who didn't want to wait 3 more seconds to make a safe lane change, and who admitted so, but I get a ticket. Yes, I "could" have gone slower, but for the umpteenth time, that's not what happened. Quit with the "what ifs" because they are pointless and old now.

Yes, it is now 2 accidents and 2 tickets, HALF of which would not even exist if someone didn't change lanes! Vent, I know you're much more logical than you're coming off as in this thread.